Unknown Centurio Graz museum

[Xavi]

I was talking with Greg Aldrete about the possible origins of the linothorax. I don't know if he has include this in his book...I may expose it in a new post.

[Youngster]

I would also like to point out that the armor has a rounded and "edged" neck hole. Greek and italic muscle armor almost always had rounded neck holes that are "rolled" at the edge for comfort. Linen armor tended to be square necked, and had no need of edging. This would also be consistent with other known muscle armor depictions such as that on the Ahenobarbus relief or on the Augustus of prima porta. This can't be definitive; for example Musée Saint-Raymond holds a bust of Marcus Aurelius with a square neck cuirass. But combined with the nipples and moulded pectorals (as well as subject's general battle-readiness) I doubt that the armor material is non-metallic.

[Xavi]

I thing This kind of curasse was molded... Roman were very experimented on that techniques

[Dan Howard]

The edging, the pectoral shaping, curve at the neck, the nipples. We have plenty of evidence of metal armour with these features and no evidence of leather or textile armour made like this.

[Youngster]

I thing This kind of curasse was molded... Roman were very experimented on that techniques

Could you clarify?

[Dan Howard]

I was talking with Greg Aldrete about the possible origins of the linothorax. I don't know if he has include this in his book.

He included two cites for the alleged use of glued textile armour in his book. Neither say any such thing.
http://bookandsword.com/2014/02/14/did-t...nt-page-1/

We know that layered textile armour has been in use since the Bronze Age. It has seen continual use for three thousand years all over the world from the Americas to Europe to Asia. We have dozens of extant examples in museums and private collections and plenty of descriptions in various texts telling us how it was made. Every single example is quilted. There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that it was ever made with glue.

[Xavi]

Hi Dan and Gaius, I think is better to follow the discussion in the other post about linothorax. I will reply you there.

[Youngster]

Hi Dan and Gaius, I think is better to follow the discussion in the other post about linothorax. I will reply you there.

It's better to keep the discussion here, so long as our discussion is focused on the Graz armor specifically. It will then be easier to search and find the discussion later, when some new member first discovers the Graz relief and wonders to himself what sort of armor that could be. So as long as we are focused on this piece, we ought to keep it in this topic.

[Dan Howard]

There is also not much point starting yet another thread about linen armour. There have already been half a dozen or so in the last year. Better to continue one of those threads.

Here are some to start with
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-greek-mi...horax.html
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-greek-mi...oject.html
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-greek-mi...horax.html
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-greek-mi...-book.html

[Xavi]

Ok, I will keep going here but is more related with next topic.
Either quilting or leather will not explain some extrange armour with sleeves, like Marcus Caelius or the Gessius cuirass.
There are many other examples including some auxiliary soldiers armours:
http://www.romancoins.info/DSC_0285.JPG
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83154955@N00/14003197412

I´m a sculptor mayself and the quality of the sculptures don´t match an error of this caliber in the modeling.
Also most Roman imperial sculptures show them flexed an sometimes foldings in the armour.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7236/72393...530c_z.jpg

Also is extrange that the armours are apparently made in one piece including pteriges.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7169/66146...a79a_z.jpg

I have also an image of a naked greek dressed warrior with a very flexible cuirassat at his side...actually I don´t find a way to download it to the chat... but I´m sure you know that

[Xavi]

[attachment=10888]linenorleatherantpiusa.jpg[/attachment]
I think I manage to attach the image...

[Dan Howard]

It doesn't matter how good a sculptor you are if you don't have a clue how proper armour functions.

[Xavi]

You willl agree with me that a roman sculptor knows how a roman armour looks, better than we do.
Romans have plenty of greek sculptures and know very well how a conventional armour will look lijke.
In the other hand, to protect the shoulders with something better than pteriges will obviously be a good idea.
If it don´t fits our preconcieved ideas, does not mean we have to hide it or ignore it.

[Dan Howard]

Armour hadn't changed appreciably for three thousand years. The same basic designs appear again and again all over the world. There are only so many ways to cover a human body.

[Thomas V.]

As Renatus already pointed out, the Graz Centurio resembles the Colchester stele. Th. Fischer uses said stele as an example of armour worn by centurions: Chainmail emulating the look of the musculata armour of higher-ranking persons (tribunes, legates, maybe the emperor). Xavi B, in your other thread you point out that the "sleeves" shown in monuments can be achieved by the flexible lorica hamata, but you reject the lorica hamata option, as there is "no chainmail on it (cf. [hide]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-military-history-a-archaeology/323612-linothorax-and-other-white-cuirases.html#360069[/hide])". The Romanius grave stele ([hide]https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7206/6965644301_ab123006cc_b.jpg[/hide]) however, shows that a smooth surface doesn't exclude the depiction of chainmail (at least according to Th. Fischer, who refers to the distinctive lorica hamata closing hooks shown in the Romanius stele). So the armour worn by the Graz Centurio is probably the centurio version of the lorica hamata.