Muscle Armor effectiveness

[PhilusEstilius]

If in late antiquity these things were mass produced as Evan says could they not have also been in leather.

[Dan Howard]

A leather musculata, or any kind of cuirbouilli is pretty much useless as armour unless it is layered over something else. In the Middle Ages it was pretty much always worn over mail. Do we have evidence for muculatas layered over mail? Leather only makes effective armour by itself if it is multi-layered. Overlapping plates, like scale/lamellar is another way to get a multi-layered effect.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The Greek Spolas, which we're fairly certain was made of leather, is around 2 inches (5cm) thick to have the equivalent protection of a bell cuirass or muscle cuirass of bronze.

A cuirboulli or leather Musculata would be useless unless it was the same thickness, which would make it both heavier and more expensive to produce than the equivalent cuirass in iron.

[Bryan]

The Greek Spolas, which we're fairly certain was made of leather, is around 2 inches (5cm) thick to have the equivalent protection of a bell cuirass or muscle cuirass of bronze.

A cuirboulli or leather Musculata would be useless unless it was the same thickness, which would make it both heavier and more expensive to produce than the equivalent cuirass in iron.

How much does a 2" thick leather Spolas weigh? And why would boiled leather be more expensive to produce than cast bronze or forged iron?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It would be more expensive 1. Due to the sheer amount of material, and 2. Due to the process of shaping the hardened leather, which would be very difficult at such a thickness.

I can't tell you how much a leather Spolas weighs, but as far as I know it's about the same as a full chainmail hauberk, but covers far less of the body than chainmail.

[Mrbsct]

Don't Roman Emperors use Linen armor? Was this description Linothorax or Linen Musculata?

As [Galba] was offering sacrifice on the morning before he was killed, a soothsayer warned him again and again to look out for danger, since assassins were not far off. Not long after this he learned that Otho held possession of the Camp, and when several advised him to proceed thither as soon as possible — for they said that he could win the day by his presence and prestige — he decided to do no more than hold his present position and strengthen it by getting together a guard of the legionaries, who were encamped in many different quarters of the city. He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many swords

Suethonius

[Mark Hygate]

Have any, are there any, actual examples of a leather armour cuirass that have survived?

Whilst comparing equivalents of thickness for the same protection, it is also true that some armour is better than none and thinner leather (or indeed stiffened linen were used for lighter armour) can still be efficacious against some knife-strikes or ranged arrows, for example.

Only of use where lighter weight is therefore traded for protection - for metal is normally superior.

[Dan Howard]

People always say that but whenever extant leather armour is analysed it is always heavier than a metal cuirass. It seems that nobody wore leather armour in battle because it was lighter than metal. Cost and/or availability seem to be the main reasons.

[Dan Howard]

Don't Roman Emperors use Linen armor? Was this description Linothorax or Linen Musculata?

As [Galba] was offering sacrifice on the morning before he was killed, a soothsayer warned him again and again to look out for danger, since assassins were not far off. Not long after this he learned that Otho held possession of the Camp, and when several advised him to proceed thither as soon as possible — for they said that he could win the day by his presence and prestige — he decided to do no more than hold his present position and strengthen it by getting together a guard of the legionaries, who were encamped in many different quarters of the city. He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many swords

That seems a pretty broad generalization to draw from a single passage. At best it tells us that one emperor wore linen armour on one occasion.

[Urselius]

It would be feasible to produce a laminate armour, a textile layer sandwiched between layers of leather would not prevent such armour from being blocked into shape. This is speculation, but as there is relatively little extant evidence for Greco-Roman non-metallic armour, despite the large number of artistic and literary references to its existence, we are forced to speculate.

[Mark Hygate]

People always say that but whenever extant leather armour is analysed it is always heavier than a metal cuirass. It seems that nobody wore leather armour in battle because it was lighter than metal. Cost and/or availability seem to be the main reasons.

Ahhh - so there are good examples remaining and they are indeed rather thick, and therefore heavier?

[Dan Howard]

People always say that but whenever extant leather armour is analysed it is always heavier than a metal cuirass. It seems that nobody wore leather armour in battle because it was lighter than metal. Cost and/or availability seem to be the main reasons.

Ahhh - so there are good examples remaining and they are indeed rather thick, and therefore heavier?

There are a lot of extant examples of leather armour but very little that might be called "Roman". Leather/rawhide armour was more popular in Eastern Europe and Asia. Most of it is in the form of scale/lamellar, but there are a few examples of leather/rawhide "cuiries". All of the ones for which I've seen data weigh more than plate armour of a similar size.

[Danielmeijers]

[quote="Dan Howard" post=357664] Cost and/or availability seem to be the main reasons.

Not only cost or availibility, but the sheer fact that in a desert it is more comfortable to wear since you are being cooked by the sun inside a metal oven, plus it would be less fatigueing.
Besides that the arid conditions of a desert preserves leather better then in a moist enviroment, hence that leather probably would have been worn more in the near east rater than in northern Europe.[/i][/u]

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Not from my experience. It's freaking 90 degrees on an average day in South Carolina, and Leather will roast you alive. Metal gets hot to the touch, but you'll stay very cool wearing a tunic and helmet liner.

[Danielmeijers]

Ok 32 degrees celsius ( 90 degrees fahrenheit if I am right ) is quite an exaggeration, no ancient army went to fight in such a heat.
And if they had to fight ( major battles excpeting skirmishes ) they did it either early in the morning or in the late afternoon.
Maybe if there was a breeze from sea there would maybe be an exception.

But you are right that leather is as a material more insulating then metal.
However it must be noted that Pharaonic charioteers wore leather scale armour.
Maybe we I and you as a reanactor can't perceive how far the limit is for natives to endure the enviroment.
As much as a US soldier in Afghanistan can't understand how the Afghanis can sleep through ice cold nights, with only one blanket, on the floor and in a non heated building.

By the way what tunic do you wear? Is it such a Persian tunic which gets lots of air through?