More Merovingian- Kingdom of Soissons

[Caballo]

The Cohortis Nova Batavorum held out until 476- thats is very interesting! Didn't know that- any more info?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

So long as the Roman dominion lasted, soldiers were maintained in many towns at public suspense to guard the boundary wall. When this custom ceased, the squadrons of soldiers and the boundary wall were blotted out altogether. The Troop at Batavis, however, held out. Some soldiers of this troop had gone to Italy to fetch the final pay to their comrades, and no one knew that the barbarians had slain them on the way. One day, as Saint Severinus was reading in his cell, he suddenly closed the book and began to sigh greatly and to weep. He ordered the bystanders to run out with haste to the river, which he declared was in that hour besprinkled with human blood; and straightway word was brought that the bodies of the soldiers mentioned above had been brought to land by the current of the river.

At the same time the inhabitants of the town of Quintanis, exhausted by the incessant incursions of the Alamanni, left their own abodes and removed to the town of Batavis. But their place of refuge did not remain hidden from the Alamanni: wherefore the barbarians were the more inflamed, believing that they might pillage the peoples of two towns in one attack. But Saint Severinus applied himself vigorously to prayer, and encouraged the Romans in manifold ways by examples of salvation. He foretold that the present foes should indeed by God's aid be overcome; but that after the victory those who despised his admonitions should perish. Therefore the Romans in a body, strengthened by the prediction of the saint, and in the hope of the promised victory, drew up against the Alamanni in order of battle, fortified less with material arms than by the prayers of the saint. The Alamanni were overthrown in the conflict and fled. The man of God addressed the victors as follows. "Children, do not attribute the glory of the present conflict to your own strength. Know that ye are now set free through the protection of God to the end that ye may depart hence within a little space of time, granted you as a kind of armistice. So gather together and go down with me to the town of Lauriacum." The man of God impressed these things upon them from the fullness of his piety. But when the people of Batavis hesitated to leave their native soil, he added, "Although that town also, whither we go, must be abandoned as speedily as possible before the inrushing barbarism, yet let us now in like manner depart from this place."

As he impressed such things upon their minds, most of the people followed him. A few indeed proved stubborn, nor did the scorners escape the hostile sword. For that same week the Thuringi stormed the town; and of those who notwithstanding the prohibition of the man of God remained there, a part were butchered, the rest led off into captivity and made to pay the penalty for their scorn.

And so came an end to the Ninth Batavians

[AMELIANVS]

Didn't one Legion survive until almost 900 AD? IV Parthica I think?

You probably have Victores and Theodosiaci on mind.They are mentioned for the last time around 950 AD(being mentioned in action in previous century as well).

IV.Parthica is mentioned for the last time in 586 and V.Macedonica in early 7th century.

[Diocle]

Didn't one Legion survive until almost 900 AD? IV Parthica I think?

You probably have Victores and Theodosiaci on mind.They are mentioned for the last time around 950 AD(being mentioned in action in previous century as well).

IV.Parthica is mentioned for the last time in 586 and V.Macedonica in early 7th century.

Wow, from Gaul and Europe to Byzantium, to find some 'Roman' (?) unit in VI century! :wink:

Good choice it is the right direction, Pavel and Mag you've my approval! 8+)

[Flavivs Aetivs]

V Macedonica is last mentioned from an inscription of 'Macedonians' at their station in Memphis in Egypt.

[AMELIANVS]

Yes.But of course we should keep in mind this Macedonians doesn't have to be necessarily the same with Legio Macedonica but it is very likely they were the same regiment soldiers and presumable Macedonica is very richly suggested also in Egyptian art(other pieces with similar shield design exist from this region apart from that already posted).

Carlo:I always talked about units in Roman military tradition not about actual Roman army units continuing in service(although I believe some units like this very likely existed as well and were kept in service for some time by new barbarian overlords).

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Yes.But of course we should keep in mind this Macedonians doesn't have to be necessarily the same with Legio Macedonica but it is very likely they were the same regiment soldiers and presumable Macedonica is very richly suggested also in Egyptian art(other pieces with similar shield design exist from this region apart from that already posted).

Carlo:I always talked about units in Roman military tradition not about actual Roman army units continuing in service(although I believe some units like this very likely existed as well and were kept in service for some time by new barbarian overlords).

The difference between the Egyptian one and the one from (Balbuk is it?) is that it was found where the Legion was known to be stationed.

[Diocle]

I believe some units like this very likely existed as well and were kept in service for some time by new barbarian overlords).

Have you some source to show us the basis of your beliefs or is it for you a matter like Atlantis, Pavel? :wink:

It seems to me that the real point of this thread is the faith, and sadly I'm atheist ...

[AMELIANVS]

I already explained my view on it clearly and I certainly don't force it to you or to anyone..I would only repeat myself.You also repeat yourself now Carlo :wink:

P.S: But if we can travel in time I would bet with you for considerable sum of money that my view(which doesn't have to be necessarily right view as I'm contrary to you not in the habit of categorically supporting some ideas as must be right or false where evidence does not allow me to be that confident to support it at all costs)is more close to reality than yours.

[Diocle]

I already explained my view on it clearly and I certainly don't force it to you or to anyone..I would only repeat myself.You also repeat yourself now Carlo :wink:

P.S: But if we can travel in time I would bet with you for considerable sum of money that my view(which doesn't have to be necessarily right view as I'm contrary to you not in the habit of categorically supporting some ideas as must be right or false where evidence does not allow me to be that confident to support it at all costs)is more close to reality than yours.

I doubt that it can be considered realistic imagining a Roman unit (or even a unit dressed as a late imperial Roman unit, with Signa, Vexilla and all this stuff...) serving in the Merovingian Gaul during the VI century, I have to be honest it's absolutely unbelievable.

Anyway if you find a time-machine to travel in time and space, remember Pavel: Advise me! I'm very, very, very interested in time travels! 8+)

[AMELIANVS]

O.K.-you said your point I said mine-fight is over.For the time being

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Ah yes, the browguard of a Baldenheim - not sure which one.

[Diocle]

O.K.-you said your point I said mine-fight is over.For the time being

The King Agilulf is pleased , he appreciated your gift, master Pavel and he declared you will be always welcome in the Duchy of Friuli.

[Robert Vermaat]

In fact, actually, here we are talking of Merovingian Units preserving the Roman organization and marching under Roman standards in the VI century! And this this is false.
It's false until you can you proof the existence of such Roman Units in the Merovingian Kingdom. Can you? I doubt.

No Carlo, we are not talking of that, we are talking about Units preserving their traditions of the 5th century into the 6th century. No-one here has spoken about the Roman organization, and I don’t recall Procopius saying anything about a Roman army organization either. So no, I don’t need to prove all that because no-one (not even Procopius) is claiming that.

But do me a favor and think on it. The Franks did in large parts of Gaul not drive the Romans out, they were already in charge in large parts of the diocese during the later 5th century. Not as independent Franks, but as rulers of Roman army commands and of some Gallic provinces. After the influence of Rome waned, these men did not move south, nor did the local civic organization change – this was all absorbed by the emerging kingdom of the Merovingian Franks, who are not on record that they started with a blank canvas, but took over the existing institution: organization, taxes, law, defense. There was a late Roman army that was absorbed by the forces of Clovis. Did he disband the units of Roman Gaul? There’s no record of it. Did he leave them be? There’s no record of it.

About words and titles, look: The Langobards used in Italy words as Dux, Comes, Gasindius, Gastaldus, Arimannus, Iudex, Minori Homines, Equites Caballarii, Maiores et Potentes, Sequentes, Minores, and then? [/quote]

Unfair comparison. The Langobards were no tribe that functioned in connection with the Roman army, or under Roman command as long as the Franks did. They entered Italy when it had been taken over by the Ostrogoths, re-conquered by Belisarius, etc. Of course there was hardly anything left of the Roman army organization. But furthermore, the came as conquerors, fighting the Eastern Roman army – totally unlike the Franks who had been federates for more than a century! ]

So now I’m asking you to prove that all the traditions of the Roman army were lost and that all units were disbanded. Can you?

About Draco: I don't see why you insist in telling us that the Saxon Draco was a Roman relic when probably it was simply one of the various Germanic standards used in the Early Middle Age in Europe deriving from the Sarmatians and the Huns.

Yes, I propose (I do not insist) that the Frankish draco is a Roman relic. I think (assume) that the Saxon draco might also be that, or else a Frankish influence. It’s you that keeps insisting it cannot be either, but so far without any proof of influence.
I’ll repeat it for you then: the draco (we know this!) was a common standard in the Roman army from the 2nd century onwards, and therefore a common Roman standard in Gaul and Britain. Yet you want us to believe that the Franks, instead of this influence, were influenced by a very small number of Sarmatians who were settled there (and soon Romanized) instead? Or even the Huns, who barely touched Gaul but for one campaign? And you can even prove that the Huns used the draco???

About English, if you can quote one single word that is Latin and not a Norman import in English Language, also in this case I'll be very happy! We have another hidden Romance Language to discover under the old Language of Shakespeare! Sadly also in this case, I have many doubts .... :|

Well, let’s make you a happy mean! Easy, all it took was a few minutes on the internet, and I did not even have to turn to my books at home about the linguistic origins of Old English. One single word? Hope you're happy now ?

http://www.orbilat.com/Influences_of_Rom...glish.html

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Or even the Huns, who barely touched Gaul but for one campaign?

Aetius had Huns roaming about Gaul on a regular basis. There are several instances of Aetius loosing control of them and having to put them down because they were savaging the countryside.

And you can even prove that the Huns used the draco???

There is no evidence to suggest they did, nor any to suggest they did not.

It is known that in modern Lir-Turkic the name "Munjuq" (Mundzuk) means "Red Flag" or "Flag-Bearer." Flags and pendants were popular in Central Asia, where the Huns came from, and amongst other Altai peoples.