More Merovingian- Kingdom of Soissons

[Caballo]

I recall reading somewhere that the troops of the Kingdom of Soissons marched under standards similar to the old Romans- does anyone know where this reference is sourced? I can't find it Gregory ot Tours though he mentions Syragius and his father Aegidius- and generally , the Kingdom of Soissons seems to be a "last stand"of Romanitas in Northern France.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Syagrius was the descendant of Aegidius who was (like most of the late 5th century characters) one of Aetius' generals.

A rough history of what happened is that Aegidius supported Avitus and Majorian, but upon their deaths broke away because of the stupidity of the Italic aristocracy and the resentment between the Italic and Gallic government. He died around 465 (after repulsing a Gothic invasion a few years before) and Syagrius took over.

It's probable Aegidius had an alliance with the Aremoricans to his West, and it is known that he had close ties with the Franks (probably as a result of Merovaeus being Aetius' adopted son). For a while Aegidius had control of the Salian Frankish kingdom, but lost control to Childeric II (I think) upon his death in 465.

It controlled lands from Aurelianum (Orleans) to Novidunum (Soissons), so basically the fertile Seine and Loire valleys, which would have supplied Grain to his army. The forces he had were probably mostly Frankish, Alemannic, or Visigothic, maybe with whatever he could scrounge up from the local possessores. Their equipment would have been moderately Roman, but likely was dominated by barbarian influence (we're talking Banded helmets rather than ridge helmets, that sort of thing.)

That's all I know. I honestly don't know of many sources for it, other than Gregory of Tours who describes the kingdom of Syagrius as a Romano-Frankish (Book 2, somewhere after chapter 7, maybe 23?) one when telling of Clovis' defeat of Syagrius.

[Longovicium]

Perhaps you're thinking of Procopius when he is describing Gallic troops still dressed and kitted out in Roman fashion (down to their boots) long after formal Roman authority had left Gaul? I forget the location (the Wars? the Anekdota?).

[AMELIANVS]

The wars.I used to underline everything which seems interresting to me in such books I know for sure I have underlined this as well so it is easy to find such passage.

[Caballo]

Thanks all- tracked it down in Procopius, De Bello Gothico.

"But as time went on, the Visigoths forced their way into the Roman empire and seized all Spain and the portion of Gaul lying beyond the Rhone River and made them subject and tributary to themselves. By that time it so happened that the Arborychi had become soldiers of the Romans. And the Germans, wishing to make this people subject to themselves, since their territory adjoined their own and they had changed the government under which they had lived from of old, began to plunder their land and, being eager to make war, marched against them with their whole people. But the Arborychi proved their valour and loyalty to the Romans and shewed themselves brave men in this war, and since the Germans were not able to overcome them by force, they wished to win them over and make the two peoples kin by intermarriage. This suggestion the Arborychi received not at all unwillingly; for both, as it happened, were Christians. And in this way they were united into one people, and came to have great power.

Now other Roman soldiers, also, had been stationed at the frontiers of Gaul to serve as guards. And these soldiers, having no means of returning to Rome, and at the same time being unwilling to yield to their enemywho were Arians, gave themselves, together with their military standards and the land which they had long been guarding for the Romans, to the Arborychi and Germans; and they handed down to their offspring all the customs of their fathers, which were thus preserved, and this people has held them in sufficient reverence to guard them even up to my time. For even at the present day they are clearly recognized as belonging to the legions to which they were assigned when they served in ancient times, and they always carry their own standards when they enter battle, and always follow the customs of their fathers. And they preserve the dress of the Romans in every particular, even as regards their shoes."


Interesting article here as well on a possible British legion in Gaul http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/D...-JAEMA.pdf

Thanks,

Paul

[AMELIANVS]

Procopius also briefly mentions situation in Britain at that time(above his text I wrote "King Arthur" :-) ) and curiously only some century and half after Roman army left the island Procopius don't realize it was Romans who had build Hadrians wall there.

[Caballo]

Go on.....sounds interesting

[Diocle]

I think that in the VI century there was no more any unit carying the Roman standards in the West, Procopius is not a direct witness he is only referring a tale (maybe with some political interest for the Byzantine Western involvement) during the VI century there was no more any unit still displaying the roman Signa.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The Riparienses garrisons on the Rhine took a long time to assimilate Diocle. They had to be conquered by Clovis, and the Rhine Limes remained intact for several generations afterwards, possibly even to Gregory of Tours' time.

[AMELIANVS]

We have also germanic art showing very Roman looking soldiers in early middleages which shows at least that they had still some idea of what ancient Roman army looked like and for example Draco standard is recorded as far as 11 century in Western europe.I have no reason not to believe Procopius in this.Although he was not a direct witness it was not so long from the fall of the west during time he had mentioned it.

[Michael Kerr]

Bernard S. Bachrach mentions that the armies of the Merovingian kingdoms were composed not only of Franks, who were at times if not often a minority, but also of Saxons, Alamans, Taifals, Alans, Burgundians, and Gallo-Romans. These peoples had their own military customs and there is no reason to believe that they gave them up simply because they came under Frankish political domination and probably wore their Roman garb and weapons until possibly the 6th Century. Bachrach in his paper "PROCOPIUS, AGATHIAS AND THE FRANKISH MILITARY" mentions that Frankish law permitted these groups to maintain their identity as a people. Gregory of Tours describes the bellicose habits of the Taifals more than two centuries after a small group of them was settled by Rome near Poitiers in the 4th Century and the Alans & Alamans probably made up the bulk of Clovis' cavalry even though both Procopius and Agathias seem to think that cavalry was not a big part of Merovingian warfare, same as bowmen. Because the Franks were not Arians these various groups found it relatively easy to assimilate into Frankish society.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Diocle]

We have also germanic art showing very Roman looking soldiers in early middleages which shows at least that they had still some idea of what ancient Roman army looked like and for example Draco standard is recorded as far as 11 century in Western europe.I have no reason not to believe Procopius in this.Although he was not a direct witness it was not so long from the fall of the west during time he had mentioned it.

Draco was not Roman it was Sarmatian and also Roman ... Procopius tells us a nice tale but there is no archaeological finds backing up this fantasy tale, what I find surprising is finding here nice people ready to believe in this absolutely laughable dream and at the same time ready to reject 'in toto' the more realistic possibility of existence and use of the Attic helmet in the Roman Army! Miracles of the 'New History!' illy:

I stay with Guy Halsall: No Roman units in the VI century.
... anyway if you find some archaeological find ... I'm open minded, and also I love dreaming: think that for me the Attic Helmets were used during the whole Roman History! :wink:

[AMELIANVS]

Carlo,
it does not matter if Draco is of nomadic tribes origin.If it was still in use in 11 century northern europe it is much more likely that they inherited this from the Roman army.Emperor Justinian was born only few years after fall of the west.You really believe that those people forget so quickly on centuries long traditions in just a few decades?This sound similarly to that elementary school simplifying in the style :476 antiquity,477 something completely different. :wink:

I don't believe 477 was something completely different and neither 100 years later it was not.

As for Attic helmets-I never said here or on any other forum,state or galaxy that I absolutely exclude possibility that there might have been some Attic style helmets im late antiquity,I only stated in one particular case of Santa Maria Maggiore mosaics that I believe they are likely inspired by ridge helmets-that is because such small detail like black dots showed on some helmet bowls might be directly linked to what is archelogicaly confirmed and that is Intercisa kind of helmet with eye motif.

[Diocle]

Here the point is that a military unit is part of a political structure and when the political structure represented by that military organization, has gone, also the military structure immediately ends. No money, no army, no officers, no values, no state no symbols, nothing!

Examples?
The Anglo Saxon military organization after the Norman Conquest: vanished in few months!
The Greek military structure after the Roman conquest: vanished, gone!
The Langobard military organization after the Carolingian conquest: Gone in few years.
The New Model Army of Olivier Cromwell. After the Restoration gone, vanished!
The German Nazi Military Machine after WWII: Gone! (thanks God!)

When the state dies also his military projection dies.

Don't you think Pavel that before dreaming about not existent Roman military units in the VI century we should show some proof? Some archaeological site clearlt documenting the existence of such units? Or at least showing some payroll, or some direct source about that units? Don't you think that a tale by an interested >Byzantine VI century author MUST be considered only a tale or a lie if not supported by some evidence? Or archaeological evidences are needed only for the pseudo-Attic helmets?

Where are those Roman VI cent. units? Where are their weapons? where is written their history? where are their tombstones? what battles have they fought as Roman units in the VI century? Is it so hard to accept the end of the Western Part in 476? The end of an army that probably had already ceased being Roman from at least twenty or thirty years?


In Merovingian France there was not any Roman unit during the VI century. Do you think the opposite? well, show me some proof of a working Roman Unit (even one!) during the VI century in the West, if not ... :wink:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The Greek military structure after the Roman conquest: vanished, gone!

This had been on the way out for about 2 centuries now. The Macedonian Phalanx had been adopted first, and then the Phalanx system was dropped altogether.

The Langobard military organization after the Carolingian conquest: Gone in few years.

Actually not much different from the Caroliginian one, so the change was easy for the units to make.

Modern Military structures cannot be applied. In an age of information it is comparable easy to change military structure quickly.

Don't you think Pavel that before dreaming about not existent Roman military units in the VI century we should show some proof?

There is some proof, but negligent. The last reliable account of Roman military units in the west is Gregory of Tours' account of Clovis subduing the "Ripuarian Franks" i.e. "Riparienses" units on the Rhine. Most of the Limitanei on the Rhine probably had no idea that the Roman Empire had fell and had to be assimilated into Frankish government. The Rhine Limes were well over 450 years old and the organization and military system there would take time to assimilate.