Spread of European Weapons Technology to the East

[Alanus]

Back to Michael,

The earliest chariots have been found in graves at Sintashta, circa 2000 BC, so the "spread" of the chariot went in both directions if we consider Sintashta as the "nucleus" of Indo-European culture (which it was), a thriving Bronze Age center of crafts and industry controlled by powerful steppe chieftains, now buried in kurgans just outside of "town."

So, we find the chariot wheeling Eastward to Shang China and rolling Westward through the tales of Homer's Iliad. This is also the time period, and maybe place, where the composite bow originated. Both the spoked wheel and composite bow arrived through the initial development of bent-wood technology. Those steppe barbarians. :whistle: What a crafty lot. ;-)

[diegis]

The wheel is actually a neolithic discovery belonging to so called "Old European Civilization" or "Danube Civilization".

Some theories said that that civilization was actually the core or the origin of Indo-Europeans. Yamna culture was just an offshot of Cucuteni-Tripolie culture, that itself beeing the peak of Old European Civilization.
The Vinca-Turdas and Cucuteni-Tripolie had symbols as zvastica or what Chinese call Yin and Yang long before they first pop up in East.
They started the metal age (copper and gold, then even bronze and some say iron as well) or was one of the places that independtly developed that.

The dragon symbol may originated as well there, then spread to east as eastern Indo-Europeans were pushed toward Asia. My opinion is that some sort of internal war (started more probably due to climate changes bring by Piora Oscillation or whatever had formed the Sahara desert as well, and a fight for resources) including an appearence of new spiritual beliefs and a religious war had caused the Indo-European split and migrations.

Some should look at old bronze age weapons and swords types to see what influences might be from Europe to Asia, beside the mail or chariots mentioned already.

[Dan Howard]

More protochronism? As far as I can tell the oldest wheel evidence is Aceramic Neolithic (9500–6500 BC) - an early Levantine and Anatolian Neolithic culture, not the Danube. The first wooden disk with an axle is Halafian (6500-4500) - again in Anatolia, not the Danube.

My own research suggests that the Naue II was probably the earliest sword that was first developed in Europe and then spread to Asia - this is near the end of the Bronze Age. There isn't much to suggest that earlier swords were influenced by European typologies.

[diegis]

Hmm, how so protochronism? I really didn't know about those evidences you mention, and if you have some sources I will be glad to see? I thought the oldest wheel discovered was somewhere in Slovenia (former Yugoslavia, southeastern Europe). And there are too some prehistoric clay toys that had wheels.
But I obviously won't hang on on this if you say that are evidences somewhere else.

However the oldest known evidences of symbols like zvastica or yin and yang (this symbol shows up even on a Roman shield I think) are in the so called Old Europe Civilization of neolithic. And if that was the origin of Indo-Europeans and those symbols spread to east sometime with the "Indo-Aryans" and Iranians, those people may had spread some weapons and warfare related stuffs too, over there.
Thats why I mentioned that, is nothing related with modern nations today

[Alanus]

The wheel is actually a neolithic discovery belonging to so called "Old European Civilization" or "Danube Civilization". Some theories said that that civilization was actually the core or the origin of Indo-Europeans.

The dragon symbol may originated as well there, then spread to east as eastern Indo-Europeans were pushed toward Asia.

What? Please, Diegis. don't claim the dragon symbol originated in the "Old European Civilization" OR in the "Danube Civilization. We've been through this before. Within the past hour, I posted a thread on jade sword fittings and illustrated two Chinese examples carved between 400 BC and 300BC, each with a dragon on it. The dragon can be dated back to Neolithic China. Show me a dragon symbol in Europe before 300BC.

It's pretty-much acknowledged by sane archaeologists, anthropologists, and language professors, that Proto Indo-European was born in the Sintashta-Andronovo Culture... a long ways east of the Danube, and also where the oldest chariots have been found-- right in the middle of Asia.

Haven't seen you post anything for awhile. Always nice to argue with you... nuk, nuk, nuk. mile:

[diegis]

Salve Alanus (sorry I don't know some Scythian salute )

And yes, I enjoy too some good argues and the ones with you and not just. And I know some of my views can be more controversial, lets say, and sometime may stir up some argues. But well, thats how I can learn too some stuffs, from the professional or more knowledgeable amateurs here (as I am an amateur myself).

Regarding the dragon (and I am sorry I dont have the time to go too long now)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka

<<In Hittite mythology, Illuyanka was a serpentine dragon slain by Tarhunt (dIM), the Hittite incarnation of the Hurrian god of sky and storm.>>

Hittites were an Indo-European people even if they were located in Asia Minor (today Turkey) and they were there long before 300 BC.

Now about the Indo-Europeans homeland or place of formation. First and to calm down some people, I don't want in any way to make a direct connection with any modern nation or such. All modern European nations are a mix of different Indo-European (and sometimes other) branches and no one can say that is the pure and direct descendant of proto-Indo-Europeans or whatever.

As for their origin place, I know that theory, started again with Marja Gimbutas, but there are few other theories, and the most newer ones I think, point to the formation of Indo-Europeans from the Cucuteni-Tripolye
Here is one of them

http://www.academia.edu/2944128/Indo-Eur...ion_Cycles

And a resume of the longer article

http://reteaualiterara.ning.com/profiles...n-homeland

And some lingvistic map

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/indoeuropean.html

And as I said symbols as zvastica or yin and yang (Chinese name) had appeared first (at least as archeology know until now) in same Old European Civilization (that occupied teritories of today Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia/former Yugoslavia, large parts of Greece, Turkey, as well Ukraine).
As any prehistoric civilization, it was formed around some big river, Danube in this case (see as well Sumer on Tiger and Euphratus, Egypt on Nile, Indian one along Gange, Chinese on the Yangtze etc). They were first to start the metal age (or one of first in the world who independently developed that), had towns bigger then what was at that time in Sumer or Egypt, they had spread the agriculture and domestication of animals in Europe and probably colonized areas around them when their population was growing up (thats how Yamna culture appeared, an offshot of Cucuteni adapted to life in the stepes).

My opinion (if I will ever write a book about this you will see more details there so probably never, just joking now) is that due to a significant climate change (that had lead to the accelerated formation of Sahara desert as well, possibly that Piora Oscillation) that Old European civilization suffered a huge backdown. It was followed by a fall of agriculture (and so an increase of nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle based on herding and animal rising that worked better in that enviroment) and an incresing internal fight for resources.
Some hints to that appear in Iranic zoroastrian writings, or old Avestan writings how are they called, with a wizard Malkus if I remember correct the name, who had bring a sort of ice age followed by a deluge.

That had lead as well to some shift in spiritual and religious views, in an almost post-apocaliptic like world for them (and people back then were surely way more religious or involved in spiritual life then modern people today)

At least two camps were formed, one keeping more the old beliefs and one having now new ones and demonizing the enemies. This internal conflict will lead to that split in various groups that fight and eventually break up and migrate all over around in Europe and Asia, forming the known Indo-European groups.

Thats why I said that such groups had bring with them their weapons and tactics too, when they had reach new teritories in Asia.