What Europeans weapons, armour and military technology spread eastwards to Persia, India and China? I am mainly talking about the ancient period, but more broadly also of the entire historical time span until the establishment of the sea route and direct contacts by the Portuguese.
Celtic mail made its way eastwards pretty swiftly. Invented in the 3rd century BC, it appears in Parthia and Sassanid Persia in the 3rd century AD, doubtlessly through military conflict with Rome, and is mentioned for the first time in 384 AD in Chinese records as typical for Iranian warriors. Even peoples as far as the Japanese finally adopted it.
There must be certainly more such instances.
Mail is the main one. Some think that iron working started in the Balkans but it likely developed in several places independently. If you read Nicolle's books then you'd think that Westerners were too stupid to invent anything. He seems to think that all of the military innovations adopted by western Europe came from the Middle East.
Quote:If you read Nicolle's books then you'd think that Westerners were too stupid to invent anything. He seems to think that all of the military innovations adopted by western Europe came from the Middle East.
I noticed long ago that David Nicolle is the Joseph Needham of the Muslim Middle East - always eager to inflate its achievements.
Concerning eastern weapons technology which spread westwards, the traction trebuchet, the stirrup and the sabre come to my mind. All these seem to have been introduced by the Avars.
Whilst we know that various nations such as Palmyra, Parthia and the Sasanids used cavalry that had armoured horses, the armour depicted appears to be scale armour similar, if not identical to that found at Dura. Constantius II may have introduced his version of those nations armoured cavalry, with the horse armour made not of scales but of mail as descriptions in Julian and Libanius would appear to indicate. I wonder if this then spread eastwards?
Quote:Constantius II may have introduced his version of those nations armoured cavalry, with the horse armour made not of scales but of mail as descriptions in Julian and Libanius would appear to indicate. I wonder if this then spread eastwards?
I think you'll find that the development of horse armour went from East to West during the centuries we are speaking of. Central Asia in particular has always seen the use and development of this armour, which was used only to a much lesser extent by the Romans.
Mail aventails seem to be used in Syria and the rest of the non-Roman Middle East far more/earlier than in the West, yet it's a common development in Medieval times. My guess would be that Constantius' cavalry (does Ammianus really describe mail catapract armour?) is based on development in the East rather than the other way around.
An approximation of the hoplite panoply and tactics were adopted by the Achaemenid Persians in a limited way to produce the Cardaces. Iron helmets are found at a relatively early date in Celtic and Hellenic Europe.
As Robert has pointed out, the great powerhouse of military innovation in most of the pre-Modern era was Central Asia. Again and again Europe, the Middle East, Indian sub-continent and Far East have adopted military developments originating in Central Asia.
The crossbow, interestingly enough, was developed both in the West and East independently, and it seems the Western version (aka the "Arcuballista" as the Romans called it) spread East into the Middle East and India.
Quote:An approximation of the hoplite panoply and tactics were adopted by the Achaemenid Persians in a limited way to produce the Cardaces.
It's not really clear what the kardakes were. Only Arrian calls them hoplites, and he doesn't elaborate, so that they were developed specifically in imitation of Greek hoplites is a bit of a modern inference. (Though it's also true that the Alexander Sarcophagus implies that the late Achaemenids had adopted the Argive shield to some extent.) Strabo says they were boys on extended hunting and military training out in the wilderness (admittedly the word's meaning in Persian may have changed by his day).
Quote:ValentinianVictrix post=348456 Wrote:Constantius II may have introduced his version of those nations armoured cavalry, with the horse armour made not of scales but of mail as descriptions in Julian and Libanius would appear to indicate. I wonder if this then spread eastwards?
I think you'll find that the development of horse armour went from East to West during the centuries we are speaking of. Central Asia in particular has always seen the use and development of this armour, which was used only to a much lesser extent by the Romans.
Mail aventails seem to be used in Syria and the rest of the non-Roman Middle East far more/earlier than in the West, yet it's a common development in Medieval times. My guess would be that Constantius' cavalry (does Ammianus really describe mail catapract armour?) is based on development in the East rather than the other way around.
I'm not sure if you fully read my post Robert as I did acknowledge that horse armour orignated in the East, but this horse armour appeared to be of the scaled variety, or made of textiles/leather. Both Julian and Libanius describe Constantius creating cavalry units in response to encountering Sharpur's Cataphracts, and both Julian and Libanius couch their words in such a way so that the reader is meant to understand that Constantius' cavalry were much more heavily armoured, and they describe even the horses having mail armour. The inference being that Constantius, thought of as being cowardly especially by Libanius, wanted to overwelm Sharpur not only by sheer weight of numbers but also by fielding a large number of 'invulnerable' cavalry as Julian and Ammianus called the Clibanarii.
Quote:Urselius post=348464 Wrote:An approximation of the hoplite panoply and tactics were adopted by the Achaemenid Persians in a limited way to produce the Cardaces.
It's not really clear what the kardakes were. Only Arrian calls them hoplites, and he doesn't elaborate, so that they were developed specifically in imitation of Greek hoplites is a bit of a modern inference. (Though it's also true that the Alexander Sarcophagus implies that the late Achaemenids had adopted the Argive shield to some extent.) Strabo says they were boys on extended hunting and military training out in the wilderness (admittedly the word's meaning in Persian may have changed by his day).
They also flanked Darius' Greek mercenary hoplites at Issus. At Issus they were undoubtedly used to hold ground, which tends to imply that they were close-combat troops rather than light infantry reliant on missiles. However, Callisthenes calls them "peltasts." There is a level of the need for logic in interpreting texts, the Persians were aware of their inferiority in some aspects of military matters, and reacted by modifying their own troops. After Granicus they replaced the javelins of some of their cavalry with spears, emulating the Macedonian heavy cavalry. The Persians knew that Greek hoplites outclassed their own infantry and they hired Greek mercenaries to make up this deficit; the appearance of a new type of Persian infantry, used in conjunction with hoplites is very suggestive of an attempt to copy hoplite equipment and tactics using native manpower.
Quote:Nada?
And your reason for the thread?
Despite the preference for archery or because of it, the Japanese never adopted mail with the same enthusiasm as parts of Eurasia, the preference being for protection derived from lamellar, connected by lacing and even rivets - by the later 16th Century - and eventually replaced by solid breastplates of an indigenous or European style. Kusari(mail), of many different patterns, was used for covering vulnerable areas, like the armpits, attached to a fabric backing, and sometimes connecting pieces of plate, with tatami armor, for instance. Complete suits of mail wouldn't appear until the Edo Period, along with horse armor and matchlock pistols, but by then the wars were long over and armor was more for show: lots of gaudy and grotesque styles, but wouldn't have been that effective in combat. When major fighting resumed around the mid 19th Century, what was then the samurai class reverted to proven lamellar derived armors of the 16th century, to be abandoned, along with swords, and replaced by then Western gear.
Quote:The Persians knew that Greek hoplites outclassed their own infantry and they hired Greek mercenaries to make up this deficit; the appearance of a new type of Persian infantry, used in conjunction with hoplites is very suggestive of an attempt to copy hoplite equipment and tactics using native manpower.
Well, I don't mean to say that the inference is implausible or not in keeping with the evidence. Only that it
is an inference, and however much circumstances suggest it, can't be stated with certainty, given that the actual equipment and tactics of the kardakes are not explicitly known to us.
Quote:Despite the preference for archery or because of it, the Japanese never adopted mail with the same enthusiasm as parts of Eurasia
Japan never learnt how to make riveted mail, they imported it. Local mail was butted and they had to come up with inventive weave patterns to try and overcome the problems that butted mail has. That's the main reason why lamellar remained so prevalent. Because of all the problems with lamellar other cultures replaced it with mail and plates a lot sooner than Japan.
Quote: When major fighting resumed around the mid 19th Century, what was then the samurai class reverted to proven lamellar derived armors of the 16th century, to be abandoned, along with swords, and replaced by then Western gear.
This was caused by a desire to resurrect their old martial traditions and had nothing to do with the technology being "proven". Lamellar is highly maintenance intensive and causes a lot of problems that re-enactors never get to experience. Sakakibara Kozan's
Chukokatchu Seisakuben presents a good summary of some of them:
"When soaked with water the armour becomes very heavy and cannot be quickly dried; so that in summer it is oppressive and in winter liable to freeze. Moreover, no amount of washing will completely free the lacing from any mud or blood which may have penetrated it, and on long and distant campaigns it becomes evil-smelling and overrun by ants and lice, with consequent ill effects on the health of the wearer."
All of the above problems are solved with the mail-and-plates construction. Lamellar also has plenty of gaps that aren't present with mail and techniques were developed to exploit these deficiencies. Otake-shihan wrote:
"However, Japanese armor has, for the sake of easier movement, unavoidable and exposed weak points, and it is this design defect that is targeted by the
omote set of techniques in
Katori Shinto-ryu."
By the end of the Middle Ages pretty much all of the military innovations are developed in the west and migrate east.