Quote:Roman horsemen carry their lances and strike the enemy in the same manner as do the Alans and the Sarmatians.
I have the first two, but need the third.
I found 3 references from Ars Tactica mentioning how cavalry fought like Alans or Sarmatians. The first 2 concern how lances are carried & the 3rd regarding their liking for the feigned retreat.
4.3 The spear-bearers are those who approach the enemy ranks and fight them off with spears or charge and drive them back with pikes like the Alans and Sarmatians.
4.7 Of the Roman cavalry some carry pikes & charge in the manner of the Alans & Sarmatians and others have lances.
44.1 These are the traditional exercises which the Roman cavalry have practised since ancient times. But the emperor has also introduced the practice of barbarian manoeuvres such as the Parthian and Armenian horse-archers carry out, together with the turns and feigned retreats of the Sarmatian and Celtic stave-bearers.
Hope these are what you are looking for to help with your paper.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Hi Evan, I know you have almost finished your final draft but I found a source for the Alans from Claudian regarding an unnamed Alan king fighting with Stilicho against Alaric in 402AD.
Claudius Claudianus 4th-5th C. From Alexandria
De Bello Pollentino sive Gothico 402 - Claud. Carm. 26, 581-597 (ed. Birt MGH AA X, p. 280-281)
Battle of Pollentia (402AD) between forces of Stilicho and the Visigothic king Alaric. This epic-historical poem gave a prominent role to the auxiliary Alan troops of the Roman faction:
Quote: “the Alan submitted to our authority, went wherever our trumpets ordered him to go, and sought death for Latium, taught by **** the glorious [chief] of the Alan people ****, whom nature had moulded with small limbs but great courage and dyed his eyes with a terrible anger. No part of his body was free of wounds and, torn by spears, the glory of his disfigured face shone more proudly. At Stilicho’s command, he went hastily with his swift horsemen and bit the dust of Italy. Fortunate and worthy of the Elysian fields and of these verses, he who, wrongly suspected by us, ardently desired to prove his loyalty even with his death; who, taking the sword for judge, refuted an undeserved accusation with his praiseworthy blood! Deeply affected by the hero’s death his cavalry turned tail and the whole army, deprived of this flank, would have staggered about if Stilicho, who had quickly arranged a legion in battle order, had not started up horseback combat again with infantry support.
In his last poem
De sextu consulatu Honorii , 404 – Claud. Carm. 28, 223-225 (ed. Birt MGH AA X, p. 243)
When dealing with the battle of Verona (403), he recalls again the episode of Pollentia
Quote: [Stilicho] would have captured you too, Alaric, and would have put you to death, if the rash ardour of an unwary Alan had not upset the foreseen plan.
Apparently the battle of Pollentia ended in a narrow victory to the Romans and it looks like a “Scapegoating exercise” where the untrustworthy Alans rode away after their king died only to be rallied by Stilicho, and then in combination with his legion attacked the Visigoths and together they won a narrow victory, but Alaric escaped and it was the Alans’ fault in 2 ways, the rash attack of their king before the legion was in position & then his troops fleeing the field, or could this have been a feigned retreat albeit a mishandled one luring the Goths, and the Alans following usual Steppe tactics, turning and combining with Roman legion to finish off Alaric? Claudian seems to be pointing the finger, as well as praising his bravery at the Alan king with Stilicho saving the day but not with the result he wanted. Maybe by the time of Aetius there may still have been some perceived mistrust of the Alans or their leaders, but not their military capabilities so maybe their perceived rashness in battle influenced Aetius dispositions before the battle. But it is a poem although showing some interesting descriptions of Alan King
In his book Sources on the Alans A Critical Compilation Agusti Alemany also points out from Claudian’s description of the Alan king that he was a small man, maybe of mixed blood from an Alano-Hunnic marriage and had a disfigured face but doesn’t know if this is because of cranial deformation or facial disfiguration (maybe both). A little different to the description of Alans by Ammianus Marcellinus who said
Quote:Moreover, almost all the Alans are tall and handsome, with rather fair hair
I know it is probably too late to use as I see you have posted a PDF on another thread but I put the quotes in anyway, maybe to provide a bit of background on the Alans & possibility of using a feigned retreat tactic fighting for Romans previously to Chalons. Sorry for lateness again.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Hey thanks for that Michael. My final draft isn't up yet, this is definitely useful, I will probably add this in.
I think it isn't so much a general distrust of the Alans, but maybe contemporary and later writers were trying to emulate Claudian? Merobaudes certainly attempted to copy Claudian (who was a much better poet than Merobaudes).
"The Battle of Chalons is not the only instance of Alans behaving in an untrustworthy manner in late Antiquity. In 402, at the Battle of Pollentia, Claudian records that:
“The Alan submitted to our authority, went wherever our trumpets ordered him to go, and sought death for Latium… At Stilicho’s command, he went hastily with his swift horsemen and bit the dust of Italy. Fortunate and worthy of the Elysian fields and of these verses, he who, wrongly suspected by us, ardently desired to prove his loyalty even with his death… Deeply affected by the hero’s death his cavalry turned tail and the whole army, deprived of this flank, would have staggered about if Stilicho, who had quickly arranged a legion in battle order, had not started up horseback combat again with infantry support.”
- Claud. Carm. 26.581 – 26.597
In this passage, Claudian indicates the Alans attacked before the Romans had drawn up their battle line, and were repulsed by Alaric and his Goths. Stilicho noticed the crisis after he had drawn up his battle line, and with a few infantry units rallied the Alans, allowing the Romans to emerge victorious. Aetius may have positioned the Alans in the center of his line with Thorismund so they would not behave so rashly, and this may have been the true source of the mistrust of Sambida and his Alans, not that he would defect. Furthermore Jordanes certainly would have read up on Claudian’s works, and may have drawn on them for inspiration."
From my Article (The Formatting for it died, sorry)
The "unnamed" Alan leader who died at Pollentia was Saul. He was appointed Magister Equitum by Stilicho less than 24 hours before he died. Perhaps the "shortest" career Alan in history. No pun intended, but evidently he wasn't a tall man yet agile. :-)
When Tacitus gave us the picture of Roxolani so weighted down by their armor that they couldn't get to their feet on the ice, he was not pulling our leg. I just received a new set of Alanic armor-- lamellar body with scale skirts and upper arm protectors. It weighs so much that I need a "thane" or "man" to help me tie myself into it. Back then, what did they call such a helper anyway? :unsure:
It's hard being a "shining Alan" when your armor is rusty. It came from Poland via container ship, a 2 month ride across salt water. I thought it was lost, no confirmation of the tracking number. Patryk at Lycia thought it was lost also. I'm just glad it arrived. Don't know why a guy named Alan chose to portray an Alan. Maybe I'm reincarnated from some character once living in the Ili River Valley. (That will get Robert Vermaat to chuckling.) illy: :whistle:
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Hi Alanus, Orosius (5th Century) who after reading him you get the feeling he does not like the Alans, Huns or Goths, probably because they were pagans or Arians in his "History against the Pagans" in book 7 he adds a bit to the information you spoke of at battle of Pollentia In Book 7 2.32.2 At first I am not sure but I think he is railing about former enemies fighting for Rome now.
Quote: about the Great Scythian peoples feared by all the ancient world and avoided even by Alexandar the Great, as Pompey and Cornelius gave witness to, and who, after destroying the Roman army, had equipped themselves with Roman horses & arms that is the Alans, Huns and Goths and conquered them in many great battles.
He then goes on to say
Quote:as regards the battle of Pollentia between Stilicho and Alaric, it is said: "I shall be silent about the unfortunate events of Pollentia, when the management of the war was entrusted to a Barbarian & pagan general, that is Saul. Through his perversity, the most venerable days and Holy Easter were profanated, and the enemies were forced to fight, although they were withdrawing because of religious scruples; when we were victorious in the fight, but even though we were victors, we were overcome, it was shown by God's judgement in a short time what his favour is able to do and what his revenge claims. I shall be silent about the constant discord of the very Barbarians among themselves, when two formations of Goths, and later the Alans and the Huns, destroyed each other in various slaughterings
Don't know what he means at the end of diatribe but seems to be criticizing Stilicho for appointing Saul who by his rashness started a battle before the Romans were ready & for not letting the barbarians go before battle as they seemed to be disunited & probably ready to break up into smaller groups. Just surmising.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Well, Orisius got it wrong. He was so ambivalent about Saul, yet totally unaware that Saul was named after the original name of the Apostle Paul. The Alans within Saul's group had been converted to Arian Christianity by Bishop Amantius as far back as 380. We also see the same hoopla much later in the silly book by Littleton and Malcor. Folks like Orisius, Littleton, and Malcor, give scholarship and authorship a bad name. :whistle: 8+)
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Quote:When Tacitus gave us the picture of Roxolani so weighted down by their armor that they couldn't get to their feet on the ice, he was not pulling our leg. I just received a new set of Alanic armor-- lamellar body with scale skirts and upper arm protectors. It weighs so much that I need a "thane" or "man" to help me tie myself into it. Back then, what did they call such a helper anyway.
You will have to post some images of the armour, should be interesting. BTW regarding your earlier post warning to be careful about Bachrach's book "History of the Alans in the West." August Alemany is very critical of a lot of Bachrach's assumptions about the Alans in his book & he is not afraid to point them out. For example he points out that Bachrach has Saul fighting for Stilicho at the battle of Verona a few years after dying at the Battle of Pollentia because of mistranslation of Claudian's last poem. Just one of many errors he seems to find in Bachrach's book. Apparently Saul upset his Christian allies at Pollentia by attacking the Goths on Good Friday.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Quote: It weighs so much that I need a "thane" or "man" to help me tie myself into it. Back then, what did they call such a helper anyway? :unsure:
A calo (boy).
Quote:Don't know why a guy named Alan chose to portray an Alan. Maybe I'm reincarnated from some character once living in the Ili River Valley. (That will get Robert Vermaat to chuckling.) illy: :whistle:
hee hee. 8-)
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Quote:However, in a few words, in the initial formation, cursores (skirmishing missile cavalry) and defensores (cavalry that keeps its formation) together form a line with units 200-400 feet apart. First, it is the cursores who attack the enemy, then they wheel about and enter the intervals, there they again wheel about and with the defensores they jointly advance against the enemy or they ride out on the flanks of the formation or the kursores units.
Hi Macedon, Evan I was going over earlier posts in this thread regarding Maurice & the Alan Drill. Macedon's description of “The Alan Drill" fits in with Agusti Alemany's description in his book “Sources of the Alans A Critical Compilation" however in his page notes Alemany says that rather than copying the drill from the Alans he thinks it is more a defensive manoeuvre designed to combat a feigned retreat favoured by the Alans. He describes this manoeuvre as a tactical exercise aimed at keeping order in the ranks while attacking a fleeing enemy (Alans) with the defensores keeping in formation in anticipation of a feigned retreat as was usual amongst the Alans & he goes on to say that in this sense it would be better to translate “see Greek word in attachment" as training against the Alans. Like a later version of Arrian's Array against the Alans but with less detail. Any thoughts on this?
[attachment=8170]greektext.jpg[/attachment]
Alanus, this Alan King Saul seems to have a bit of history with the Romans. According to John of Antioch he was involved in an assassination attempt against magistros Illus during the reign of Zeno, then in 394 Theodosius appointed him a general under Stilicho. Theodosius's army defeated Arboglast on the river Frigidus in 394 where Zosimus adds that he fled at the first clash. Then he fights for Stilicho at battle of Pollentia & upsets his Christian allies by attacking the Goths on Good Friday, gets killed for his rashness & praised by Claudian but also blamed for the Romans only gaining a moral victory as well as Alaric escaping & eventually sacking Rome. Orisius doesn't seem to like him because he is a barbarian as well as an Arian, & had the hide to attack Alaric on a holy day? Quite an interesting fellow.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Well... it sounds like a bold proposal. Linguistically it is possible, although not probable (exactly like in English, saying "the Alan drill" may imply "drilling against the Alans" although the first thing that comes to mind is "drilling as the Alans did"). The improbability further increases if one looks at the rest of the Drills, for then "the African Drill" would be drilling against the Africans, "Italian Drill or The One To Use" would be drilling against the Italians, the "Illyrican Drill" one against the Illyrians (??) etc . However, it is also obvious that the Drills are not portraying the manner that these peoples fought in reality, in my personal opinion, they were called so because of certain tactics within them that were adopted and fitted into the Roman manner only.
Macedon MODERATOR Forum rules
George C. K.
῾Ηρακλῆος γὰρ ἀνικήτου γένος ἐστέ
Quote:Well... it sounds like a bold proposal. Linguistically it is possible, although not probable (exactly like in English, saying "the Alan drill" may imply "drilling against the Alans" although the first thing that comes to mind is "drilling as the Alans did"). The improbability further increases if one looks at the rest of the Drills, for then "the African Drill" would be drilling against the Africans, "Italian Drill or The One To Use" would be drilling against the Italians, the "Illyrican Drill" one against the Illyrians (??) etc . However, it is also obvious that the Drills are not portraying the manner that these peoples fought in reality, in my personal opinion, they were called so because of certain tactics within them that were adopted and fitted into the Roman manner only.
Furthermore it would not make sense - the other drills would have to be named after the tribes they were adopted from. The African drill implies a drill used by African Legions, not against Africans of which you have several different groups. The Italic drill would be called the Gothic Drill or the Lombard Drill if it was against the peoples in Italy. The Illyrian drill makes no sense at all - there were no Barbarians in Illyria and the Illyrians had annexed for 700 years by now.
illy: :whistle:
