Dacian Falx, by R. Wimmers

[brennivs - tony drake]

Excellent piece of work Robert Gaivs I dont want my pork lion on the small side :whistle: just a quick post as I am up and running on the site thanks to Jasper
Regards Brennivs :woot:

[Robert]

Thanks, Tony! I made it forging the blade from C45 steel, as Byron wanted to hit things with it :0. These are a bit of work to forge, as not only does the curve want to go the other way, but getting it straight on a smallish anvil takes some juggling with hot iron :-) .

[brennivs - tony drake]

Hi Robert I made the curve on my Falx in the fire of the living room :woot: :whistle: I used too bolts in a vice to slowly bend the end.luckly my was the sword version so only the tip needed bending, I can appreciate the difficulty in bending a larger curve so well done here is mine to compare the difference in the curve :-)

Regards Brennivs :grin:

[Robert]

Hi Tony,

Oh yep, once you get iron above 400 degrees celcius, it loses most of its strenght, so a fireplace or even a gasstove will work to heat metal sufficient for bending. Looks cool, indeed a different version. I based mine on a picture from a museum in "Dacian territory". I wanted a lot of ridgidness left in the blade, so I left the back 5 mm till right up near the tip. If you put in more distal taper there, the bend/curve can be made flattening out the back a bit, which brings the point forward. As it was, I bent it over half a log red hot (log didn't like that) hitting the back with a woden hamer to prevent marring, then quenched, then reheated the cutting edge to get it sharpish and quenched again.

[ParthianBow]

I have now received my falx from Robert, and am very happy!

[Dan Howard]

Pics or it didn't happen

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Come on Ben, don't be shy, I've shown you mine, show us your!! :-P




This item seems to attract a lot of attention and conversation at the Lunt Weekend.

[Titus Manlius Verus]

Hitting iron helmets, even much more authentic types then the welded sheet iron Indian bowls, is VERY hard on blades. So best do this experiment last. And make sure there is no ridgid mounting of the helmet, to mimic the bending or snapping of the neck of the guy who is wearing the helmet.

Robert, could you please explain how truly authentic helmets would be made? I know that a certain Indian company is notorious for selling cheap sheet-metal helmets. Would helmets in service at the time of the Dacian war still be tinned bronze, or were they made out of low carbon steel (that a lot of people have claimed they were)? Also, would brass/bronze helmets defend better (or worse) against the falx? Certainly the type of metal a helmet was made out of would affect it's ability to defend against the falx.

Regards,
Tyler

P.S. Excellent work on the falx. It looks like a superbly crafted piece.

[Robert]

Iron makes short work of sheet bronze. Helmet bowls were driven from hammered sheet and the amount of folding would strenghten the iron a lot compared to a single sheet of driven iron. So it would depend on how the sheet was made prior to it being made into a bowl. I do believe it is safe to say an authenic helmet would be less resistant to a hit then the modern ones, as these are both thicker in metal and of beter material. The funtion of a helmet is to deflect a strike, but taking a direct downward hit from a falx may not cleave the helmet, but would certainly dent it enough to cause blunt force trauma to the cranium (stave in your skull in plain English ...). Due to the mechanics involved, a falx can achieve a far greater impact spead then a sword (golf club principle, the power is in the swing and clubhead speed). But it would be nice to do some comparison tests, so I do hope Byron gets hold of some ballistic gelly at one point or another.

By the way, ALL Indian companies make sheet metal bowls, only some are worse then others..... Having said that, they do make nice looking helemts affordable and some companies do try to improve authentic looks at least.

PS I will leave it to Ben to post the falx as it finaly came to be, with him as a Dacian? .....

[Dan Howard]

Iron makes short work of sheet bronze. ..

Except that proper helmets weren't made from what is called "sheet bronze" today. A properly cast and work-hardened bronze of the correct alloy will be as effective as all but the best quench-hardened steels of the time. Tylecote has done the best research into this subject but the Blythe's thesis is also relevant:

Blythe, P. H., The Effectiveness of Greek Armour Against Arrows in the Persian War (490-479 B. C.), PhD dissertation, University of Reading (1977)

Neil Burridge is one of the few commercial makers today who works with the correct alloys and hardening techniques.

IMO the chances of cutting through a proper helmet far enough to injure the wearer in a combat situation using anything short of an axe is negligible.

[Marc320]

Thank you Dan for this address. I am registered in British Library Ethos, therefore no problem.
I must also acknowledge that the reading of “Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armour” of Aldrete and Bartell is very attractive.

[Robert]

@Dan I will take your word for the strenght of beaten bronze helmets being equal in strength to iron ones.

The falx is getting pretty close to an ax, mind you, if you compare weight of the blade and length of the handle. The need for reinforcement of the helmet bowl may or may not be directly linked to the falx, but it does show that helmets as they were were considered needing improvement to keep from being staved in. A blade actually cutting into the helmet is highly unlikely, imho. So something had made an impact ......

[Dan Howard]

Thank you Dan for this address. I am registered in British Library Ethos, therefore no problem.

There is a section in my book that summarises all of the best studies.
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Bronze-Ag...nt/p/3272/

I must also acknowledge that the reading of “Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armour” of Aldrete and Bartell is very attractive.

Aldrete's research is flawed in four main areas:

1. Most of their textual citations are irrelevant because they discuss other cultures using linen armour, not Greeks. There is actually very little evidence for Greeks wearing linen armour during the time in question. Recent discussions here on RAT suggest that the classical tube-and-yoke Greek armour that Aldrete's team was trying to reproduce was more likely made of hide, not linen.

2. They rely on an outdated hypothesis by Connolly suggesting that glue was used in the construction of linen armour and don't even try to build a case supporting this idea. Every example of layered textile armour that we know of from any culture or time period is quilted, not glued.

3. Their exploration of quilted armour was too superficial to get a useful comparison between glued and quilted armour. If they based their quilted test piece on extant examples of proper textile armour and primary source descriptions of its construction, they would find a negligible difference in protective capacity IMO.

4. They appear to have over-engineered their reconstruction. You can get any level of protection you want just by adding more layers. Some particularly heavy European and South American quilted textile armours were definitely arrowproof. But, if you want to replicate the classical linen corselet then you can't "over build" it. Pausanias says that linen armour is more suitable for hunting because it can let harder weapon strikes through, and Alexander was almost killed by an arrow that punched through his corselet in India. If Aldrete and his team wanted to make an accurate reconstruction then they should not be trying to make it completely arrowproof. Primary sources say it wasn't.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Getting back to the Falx, I'm sure the point was capable of generating enough force to penetrate any helmet that was not made to the highest standards of the day.
It is again interesting to note that there are few makers of modern helmets made to correct methods and techniques queuing up to offer me a sacrificial specimen.... :evil:

[Dan Howard]

Getting back to the Falx, I'm sure the point was capable of generating enough force to penetrate any helmet that was not made to the highest standards of the day.

Nothing is sure without evidence. That's why testing these ideas is important.

It is again interesting to note that there are few makers of modern helmets made to correct methods and techniques queuing up to offer me a sacrificial specimen.... :evil:

Which is why there are so few tests that have any value. Most people who attempt these sorts of tests don't have the knowledge or resources to do them properly. It is one of the reasons why I'm so disappointed with Aldrete. Finally we had a university willing to spend some money on this kind of research and all those resources get squandered on messing around with glue instead studying proper historical armour.