cingulum/balteus apron straps all wrong?you fools

[Anonymous]

Hib, was that SCA full combat you speak of? Using rattan weapons? Perhaps the blade shape has something to do with it.<br>
<br>
But I have to admit, I can't see the apron straps being anything more than decoration.<br>
<br>
<p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Gashford]

I dropped this in the Civ Talk forum.<br>
<br>
A friend was talking to a nipper at a show and the young lad asked what the danglies where for. He gave the standard answer of vague protection. The kid thought through his answer for a second then punched him straight in the danglies and felled him like a tree! The kid was about ten yrs old ... probably not as strong as a screaming celt, scary germanian or callous gaul!<br>
<br>
All the best. <p>Graham Ashford
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[Hibernicus]

"Hibernicus, was that SCA full combat you speak of? Using rattan weapons? Perhaps the blade shape has something to do with it."<br>
<br>
Rudis of rattan, oak, ash, fiberglass... with or without padding, round, oblong, blade shaped... or felt, or foam... none are stopped by the danglium. The only thing that has saved me was my athletic cup.<br>
<br>
I can't imagine a blade acting differently.<br>
<br>
Hibernicus <p></p><i></i>

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

Its like chainmail the force of the blow will get through but the cutting action of the edge will be stopped. The metal studs will help prevent the blade cutting the strap in the same way the belt plates stop the belt being cut. And yes they are also decorative.<br>
<br>
Regards Alus Claudius Maximus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hib, someone low blowed you to the groin with a rudis? Wow, I'd be angry. Thank god for the "cup". <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

Ah, but Alus, a chonging is still a choning.. one's intimate bits might not be lopped off but one's ability to do anything but clutch and moan would be greatly deterred.<br>
<br>
If the danglium were supposed to be protective something else far more efficient would have been invented... an articulated item similar to a manica comes to mind..<br>
<br>
Hibernicus <p></p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

Hib, someone low blowed you to the groin with a rudis? Wow, I'd be angry. Thank god for the "cup". Magnus/Matt<br>
<br>
Rudis.. where do you think the word "rude" came from? Primary attack is a thrust to the groin.. how rude!.. thus rudis..<br>
<br>
Hibernicus<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

vortigern studies-I dont really know. but I suspect [without much evidence-perhaps] that it wasnt worn in combat by 2nd century AD - if not earlier.<br>
<br>
Id be interested in any evidence of them being actually worn in war, and the dates for the evidence.<br>
<br>
iirc the adamklissi figures have either no aprons or no belts<br>
<br>
the mainz figures either no aprons or very short ones<br>
<br>
and on trajans column where aprons are shown they are very short <p><img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">
</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hib - "Danglium"?? I like it!<br>
<br>
The other reason I don't see the apron as "protective" - The apron straps decrease in length as the years go on - from down to the tunic's hem line in the 1st century BC (just apx.) to practically no apron at all by the 100's AD. So it really can't be protective if it's phased out in the first place<br>
<br>
I do agree the apron sure helps prevent Marilyn Monroe Syndrome, if I'm sitting down, I make sure the apron goes right there between the legs so noone has to see more Roman Dude than they need to...Don't worry I wear underwheres.<br>
<br>
Rudis comes from "rudimentary" or "basic"....As afar as I know, but the "Rude" part I will not deny!<br>
<br>
I agree with Petrus - many answers to one piece of equipment's tenure.<br>
<br>
And yeah - dangly bits make lots of noise to help intimidate the enemy and smartalleck 10 year olds.<br>
Heck, even the sheath on my Dolabra from Albion has dangly bits on it!<br>
<br>
valete!<br>
-ANDY<br>
<br>
Hib - Fiberglass Rudii?? And you're snarking on me about using WD-40 on my armor for long-term care?? Uhhuh... ::elbow nudge:: <p></p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

Danglium = the straps<br>
Dinglium = the bits at the end of the straps<br>
Jinglium= the bits at the end of the straps if they jingle<br>
... some one of our guys suggested "tinklium" but it was pointed out that that was the sound one made in the latrina...<br>
<br>
RUDIS<br>
Fiberglass rudis and other assorted extruded and pultruded "plastics" that the SCA has experimented with... rattan is still the fashion within the SCA.. sigh... its slightly flexible, shreds when it breaks (ash, oak, hickory et al break with sharp points that would maim or kill).. some of the plastics are less expensive than rattan but do not offer a satisfying sound when "rudis" strikes shield or helm or cup....<br>
<br>
Hibernicus<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Flavius]

Saluete omnes,<br>
why do not think the danglium (Hib, I really love these roman neologisms!) disappeared together with the spreading of the "bracae"? I'm more and more convinced they were just an ornament (Roman loved ornaments), useful to hold down the tunic like Scotsmen today (during summer a proper ventilation is highly wished).<br>
The "scaring effect" is true and of course useful (I could add: cool to hear), but in my opinion secondary.<br>
Valete omnes.<br>
<br>
<p>---------<br>
Fecisti patriam diversis gentibus unam;<br>
profuit iniustis te dominante capi;<br>
dumque offers victis proprii consortia iuris,<br>
Urbem fecisti, quod prius orbis erat.<br>
(Rutilius Namatianus - De Reditu Suo, I, 63-66) </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Some more archaeological evidence (from the 1st century) for you to chew over, concerning belt "sets" that have been found:<br>
<br>
Velsen soldier's body: Belt plates, frogs, buckle.<br>
Herculaneum soldier's body: (2 sets)Belt plates, frogs, buckle<br>
Chassenard cremation:Belt plates<br>
Verdun cremation: Belt plates<br>
Rheingonheim "set": Belt plates, buckle.<br>
Tekje hoard: Plates, buckle, frogs, terminals<br>
Porto Novo find: Plates, buckle.<br>
<br>
These are all that i could think of from memory, which is why i cant be more exact. Interesting that terminals and especially apron studs are relatively rare,<br>
suggestions???<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[mcbishop]

<em>Interesting that terminals and especially apron studs are relatively rare</em><br>
<br>
Studs are not rare, they are just uncommon <em>in context</em> – ie associated with other fittings belonging to what euphemistically (and inaccurately) used to be called the sporran (but which we now know to be the danglium;-). In fact, 1st-century sites are usually lousy with them; they are easy to tell as they have slightly raised rings on the underside of the head. Pendants are harder to identify as many are similar in shape and size to what I often call D-pendants (de-pendants.. geddit? Oh, why bother...) that hang in the middle of bigger cavalry pendants. Many of the things that are identified as apron terminals are in fact strap terminals for cavalry harness (the decoration and the lack of articulation usually betrays these, however).<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

I have defiantly noticed how men in tunica sit as if they were wearing trousers; with legs wide and it is not a pretty sight.<br>
especially if they have the "tailored" narrow tunica with sleeves rather than the rectangular wide tunica which has some slack in the front<br>
<br>
If you have a legionary shield there is no excuse for getting hit in the naggers as it should protect the whole body<br>
<br>
Alus Cladius Maximus <p></p><i></i>