You wouldn't belief how many times I red the German chapter about armour from Simonenko's book now.
Trying to figure out the constructions and the varies scales used. I also looked at the Orlat plaque hoping to make some sort of combination of both info. So here's #3..
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Sorry Alanus, I did not make myself clear. With an aventail, I mean a flexible, shoulder-length screen suspended from the scull-cap of the helmet, with an opening for (a part of) the face.
The style on the steppes of Eurasia seems to have been a flexible, relatively short flap to protect the sides and back of the head and the back of the neck, with or without cheek-plates. Such a style needs a collar to cover the neck, and many depictions of nomad warriors show these collars.
I mentioned archery because a stray arrow hitting a limb or even face, however traumatising, does not need to be fatal. However, even an arrow that has lost most of its velocity, only retaining its own speed of fall, when hitting the neck can often still cause an immediately fatal injury.
So if I were a nomad hero in armour, I would not make my collar from leather, but of mail or lamellar armour, with extensive padding offcourse for comfort.
No Dan, we can hardly see it on the sculpture, as most of the captured helmets shown on the column's base are now heavilly eroded, but Piranesi made some excelent drawings showing these neck-guards were made from mail or scale (or downward overlapping lamellar) armour. He was severely criticised for it, because at the time many believed the ancients did not know mail armour.
I think the Arcacid/Sasanid helmets from the 3rd century with mail fused to the scull-cap are the first to show mail neck-guards, I am not sure. I saw a find of a Roman helmet from the 5th century with lamellar neck-guard, but I can no longer retrieve it. Simonenko assumes the Sarmatians knew such helmets, but it is not clear if he has any finds to corroborate this assumption.
Folkert, I think Simonenko describes a kind of corselet of large plates, exactly like you have drawn them, but with the mail skirt and shoulderpiece attached to it, not worn underneath. The bronze strips over the shoulders is what Simonenko describes, but not the lamelar or scale armour over the shoulders, nor the short sleeves. Simonenko's artists impression then shows this piece of armour worn on top of a mail hauberk, but that is not what he describes, so I don't buy it.
Perhaps, instead of looking at the Orlat plaque, you should try looking at the famous Dura Europos grafitti of a cataphract, I suspect that suit of armour is much closer to what the Russians have found.
Alanus post=332940 Wrote:Leather aventails are on Roxolani helmets depicted on Trajan's Column.
How can you tell that from a sculpture? Are there extant artefacts to confirm that interpretation?
On the sculpture, the aventail is shown being blown by the wind behind the rider's helmet. Artist Gerry Embleton used this depiction when he created the cover painting for the Ospray book, The Sarmatians. This was not chainmail or scales, but depicted as a solid "sheet" of flowing leather.
[attachment=6677]morespangens-roxolani002.JPG[/attachment]
Here is the helmet from a sketch of Trajan's Colum.
[attachment=6678]Alancontusariusarcher.jpg[/attachment]
And here is Embleton's painting. I think this is a fair representation.
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
I Think Simonenko describes to types: 1 is over mail like I did and 2 is with a leather backing.
I could not find the notion that the plates and the scales where inserted into the mail. I mean with the mail attached to the scales and plates. Especialy because it would be difficult to attache the mail directly to the smaller scales, and for the plates: this requiers more holes on the sides of the plates then we see on the drawings in Simonenkos book.
He also says that most combined armor appears to have the scale covering the chest area and the larger plates covering the abdomen. And he gives the outcome of a calculation of 60 x 70 cm in total covered by Scale and plates together. So that's what I did in the drawing. The drawing is 1:100. and my scales and plates cover indeed about 60 x 70 mm. The way I look at it, my drawing also is pretty close to what we see on the Dura Europos graffiti, indeed except for the short sleeves. Never the less the shoulder strips show holes on booth sides, so maybe there was something like mail attached to it?
Also my idea in the drawing is to have the scales up to halfway the shoulders. Ones you cover the chest, it's only a small bit extra, up to half way the shoulders...
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Quote:On the sculpture, the aventail is shown being blown by the wind behind the rider's helmet. Artist Gerry Embleton used this depiction when he created the cover painting for the Ospray book, The Sarmatians. This was not chainmail or scales, but depicted as a solid "sheet" of flowing leather.
[snip]
It is way too crude to determine that. You can't even be sure that it is an aventail let alone that it is made of leather. Then you add that to all the other problems with the armour depicted on Trajan's Column and you have to conclude that TC can't be used for evidence for leather aventails. Need to find a better source.
Hi, I found an old image I had of the Roxolani component of Trajan's Column so I enlarged it a bit to post here in regards to this discussion. Also an image of Tanais Marble with drawing of 2nd Century Sarmatian Kontus bearer.
[attachment=6681]trajanscolumnSarmatiansretreating.jpg[/attachment]
Actually, those flapping thingies behind the helmets look more like the decorative cloth streamers tied to the back of Middle Eastern helmets. I can imagine the Sarmatians adopted this decoration.
The bottom picture is of Roman auxilliaries, generally believed to be Syrian archers, if I am not mistaken.
While some elements of Chinese and Eastern Central Asian armament did find its way into the west, the armour depicted on the Orlat Battle Plaque is very much Eastern Central Asian. The tall collars don't appear further west than Margiana AFAIK, and the lamellar arm guards don't appear further west than Orlat! The overall cut of the armour is similar to Saka and Kushan armour. It appears again on a Xiong-Nu textile from Noyon Ula. I don't know of any occurrence of such armour further west, so I would hesitate to use it as evidence for cultures in the Western Steppe such as the Sarmatians. I agree that the Dura graffito is closer to what the Sarmatians would have used - almost identical to one find which Simonenko has described.
The flaps appear more similar to a short fillet tied around the helmet, than to a specific neck guard.
Another point - I have read (unfortunately I now forget where) that Trajan's column shows Arsacids rather than Sarmatians. I think the argument went something like the Sarmatians not using full barding at the time. In any case, a depiction of a helmet almost identical to the Trajan's colum helmets was found at Tappeh Yahya dating to the 4th C AD at the latest, and they resemble earlier Kushan ribbed helmets. I only know of the segmented helmets from the Caucasus in a Sarmatian context which could be in this style, and they are quite different.
The top photo posted by Sutoris, and the the 2 photos posted by Michael are-- according to most historians-- supposedly Roxolani; however the Tanais depiction could be another Sarmatian tribe, like the Aorsi or Sirices.
This peaked spangenhelm is the one I wear as part of my kit. I added a chainmail aventail to it. Most likely, someone else in the long history of this spangen did the same thing. Or they added a scale aventail... of a leather one.
Impressive helmet Alanus, I was just wondering wouldn't richer Sarmatians who could afford them use aventails or some sort of protection for their necks. If you were a Sarmatian noble you would want as much protection as you could afford. I know Trajan's Column is a good source for how the Romans organized a campaign but I always laugh when I see the Roxolani warriors wearing what seems to me to be "lamellar body suits" and helmets but not many other details and that's why I put up the Tanais Marble pic. I sometimes think this part of the Column was somehow meant to show the "feigned retreat" as the Roxolani seem to be running from the Roman Cavalry.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
I have a couple of similar spangens made up as "Sarmatian-Gothic" prototypes, two with a chainmail aventail, and one plain. They're inexpensive, less peaked and one-tenth the price of the one I'm wearing. If anyone wants to purchase one, they can PM me. When the snow melts around here, I'll take some photos of the helms for the New Products section. :-)
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Quote:Impressive helmet Alanus, I was just wondering wouldn't richer Sarmatians who could afford them use aventails or some sort of protection for their necks... I always laugh when I see the Roxolani warriors wearing what seems to me to be "lamellar body suits" and helmets but not many other details and that's why I put up the Tanais Marble pic. I sometimes think this part of the Column was somehow meant to show the "feigned retreat" as the Roxolani seem to be running from the Roman Cavalry.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Hello, Michael
Yup. I think the depiction is supposed to represent even more than a "feigned retreat." It may be trying to depict a FULL retreat. Those terrible Roxolani who took out an entire legion a few decades ago! But we showed 'em! The nasty barbarians. Look at them galloping away from us! :mad:
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
also liking this thread
but would like to add that its a very easy experiment threading leather throng through mail.
I tried it when i made my first one and abandoned it after one wearing. It was a draw on your over your head style. If u had a corselet that buckled or laced centrefront/ centre back or at the shoulder it may not be such a problem as I found it.
still looking forward to the day that someone makes a head to toe scale armour as per the Column, :-)
