placement of the apron on a belt

[Titus Marius Secundus]

haha what about the under tunic??!!! :O
Caesar, I don't believe there would be a THIRD belt!

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I have to reply in small amounts or I get 403 darn it! ...
but...not a third belt. I don't believe just for the apron a third belt, maybe so, but just by looking at those, no. Hasn't convinced me. I believe the sculptor would have decided to just make a simple straight hanging example of a apron, without bothering to relate it to the sloping of either of the two he depicted. Doing that he or she couldn't quiet get it to look attached to one of the two belts. That's my guess. If there would have been a third belt involved, you would have seen one. Understand?

Sam

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Not necessarily. There are two belts possibly covering the third! Capice?

[Titus Marius Secundus]

capice :oops: :oops:

In the process of making my official belt making thread

follow me there later

[Crispvs]

Sam,

When Mike Bishop refers to the back of the belt in the article, in this case he is referring to the rear surface of the leather (which would lie against your stomach) rather than the part of the belt which passes around the back of your body.

The issue of how to attach the apron straps is a vexed question, as no belts have survived in a condition which would allow us to see how it was done. The type created from the divided ends of the belt is easy enough to understand but all we can say about how the type of apron usually seen is attached is exactly what Mike says: 'attached....in some way'. It is even possible that some aprons may have been able to be removed from belts, as they are not shown on either the Flavian period Mainz column bases or the Trajanic period Adamklissi metopes, both of which show soldiers apparently on campaign, whilst Flavian period funerary stelae and the Trajanic period sculptures from the arch at Puteoli do show them. Food for tought, I would suggest.

On the matter of how the ends of the apron might come to be shown level in a sculptural depiction, you might be interested in some thoughts I had on the matter a couple of years back:
http://www.romanarmy.net/artsculpture.htm

As a final couple of things, remember that it is up to you whether you put plates on the rear of the belt. The Herculaneum soldiers appears to have had fully plated belts but there is plenty to suggest that many belts featured plates only on the front. The other thing it to remind you, especially if you are now in the process of doing the leather work, to make the tongue which passes through the buckle fairly long. This is because it will have to be able to fit snugly around two different waist sizes - tou with armour and you without armour. If you make it to fit exactly around your armoured body it will probably fall down when you are not in armour and if you make it to fit you when in tunic order it will not reach around your armour - unless of course you give it a tongue of sufficient length to to br able to account for the extra length required for the armour.

Sorry to drag this a little OT

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

As a matter of interest about belt aprons here is a piece of a terminal from the end of a Roman belt apron strap that I have in my collection, this has enamel inlay however the interesting feature of this is when viewed from the rear we find that it has flat integral pins (not studs) that would have held it to the strap.

These pins would have been simply bent over at the rear of the leather to secure it to the strap end, and it may well have also been the method by which the apron studs would have been located on an apron strap. This piece of strap end is 20mm wide.
[attachment=5527]easyshare143Medium.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=5528]easyshare144Medium.jpg[/attachment]

[Crispvs]

Thanks Brian - that's an interesting piece. Thanks for posting it up. Based on the heavy thickness, the decorative style and the use of red and yellow enamel, I would guess a date in the first half of the second century AD for it. It is reminiscent of a number of belt plates found in the region of Hadrian's Wall and displayed in the museums along it. It's a bit late to be appropriate for Sam's belt but it is interesting nonetheless.

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs.

I decided to show it for it is an interesting piece the coulored inlays are also most unusual for the very pale yellow is infact a true enamel whereas the red is more of a hard paste as used by the Romans in many situations of inlay. I would think that as this kind of inlay has interested me on many occasions I realy should think of having a good analysis carried out on the red substance and indeed on othe inlayed objects I have with other coulors.