Why do 1st Century Roman groups avoid combat

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

What do you mean by fair point and valid reason ?

We also do not know how Vikings fought. We do know a little more about Roman military tactics as well as Greek tactics because they wrote about them. How a battle went in detail is what we do not know.

Btw, SCA is NOT re-enactment. However entertaining a battle might be, the risks are simply too high and it does not add to authenticity or even educational benefits.

M.VIB.M.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Hajot, how come then that the medieval scene fights often without great risks involved? How does it not have educational benefits, for example when you show how a shield wall works or how a phalanx can crush an unorganized mob ?

Also, in that incident, was the Ermine Street Guard using blunt reenactment weapons or their sharp display swords? I have seen many pretty tough medieval fights without incident.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Sharp.

About the educational benefits, shield formations as seen in Roman and other displays, especially the anti cavalry thingy they do, is done from conjection and not from fact.

M.VIB.M.

[jkaler48]

In the US "Needlefelt" weapons are used esp at Lafe (Clash of Iron)

Since the below video was made more realistic looking spears and Pila have been developed that would look ok from a reasonable distance for public demonstrations. Safety glass are worn but are not too obvious from any distance also. Injuries have been mostly minor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zmfp6TOX...ure=relmfu
http://www.ad43.org/
[attachment=5122]180351_184980738208344_100000892562046_449555_2589813_n.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5123]backupdeadromans.jpg[/attachment]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I think saying we westerners are not as aggressive as you easterners is a bit of a sterotype for starters.
We are raised to follow rules of conduct, but we are not scared of a scrap, we just understand the consequences.
As for not wanting to do combat, well, Comitatus memebers do not have many swords in the groupe for starters, and use wooden logs as swords and padded tennis balls on poles as spears for their combat mele/training display, so the overall combat does not reflect the reality of actual combat. So it should be safer in theory.
They have also modified the rules to prevent the use of real combat strikes, i.e. to the face and certain sensitive pieces.
I believe the fear of a retaliation for delivered blows may be the reason.
Most 1st cent groups use pointed weapons as part of their kit, but we do use wooden spoilers for
mock combat, just not part of our regular routine. However, death and injury incurred in a hobby can have serious consequnces on a persons working career... 8-)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hajot, how come then that the medieval scene fights often without great risks involved? How does it not have educational benefits, for example when you show how a shield wall works or how a phalanx can crush an unorganized mob ?

Also, in that incident, was the Ermine Street Guard using blunt reenactment weapons or their sharp display swords? I have seen many pretty tough medieval fights without incident.

Sorry, but all the fatalities and serious injuries I have heard of since starting a mere 6 -8 years
ago have been in medieval re-enactment.
Also I know from experience just how safe certain groups are in reality, compared to the percieved and promoted reputation.

I think if the weapons the first cent groups used were used in the same manner as others use theirs,
there would be serious injuries. Also, there is little need to doubt that a wall of sheilds with spears sticking out would be a useful obstacle to a charging enemy, mounted or otherwise.
I think the records show the anti calv formation was used by M. Antonius to defend against partian horse, Henk.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Described, yes. In great detail ? No.

M.VIB.M.

[agrimensor]

Napoleonistic reenactors don't do the bayonetcharge either I think. ans for medieval it is merely a jousting thing than real battle. So Why should the romans fight??

[Paul Elliott]

Does anyone actually make a combat-safe gladius?

Viking and Medieval swords ready blunted and ready for combat practice seem to be well represented.

[Marcus Aemilius Longinus]

Our group uses ones made by a sword company called Armour class. The blades are of good quality and were also quite cheap at around 60-70 pounds a blade. They are what our group uses for combat and as they can fit into most of our scabbards we can use them as display swords at a pinch, not to mention useful for letting the public handle as opposed to the pointy ones which annoy insurers.

[John Conyard]

I think the answer maybe be part historical. While many historical re-enactment groups were set up with mock combat in mind, Roman re-enactment has a long history of reconstructing artefacts including sharp weapons. Indeed hitting people with blunt swords is often perceived as silly compared to reconstructing military artefacts, which has a higher purpose. This in turn attracts a different type of re-enactor, perhaps a little older than some with different ways of presenting to the public. And I suspect many people enjoy collecting items of Roman dress and equipment with absolutely no intention of using it except to dress up in and pose for photos.

However Comitatus has always taken a slightly different approach, but one that does not involve mock combat with casualties and staged deaths. The display is a scripted show designed to be educational, exciting and sometimes humorous. Sharp missile weapons are used, and sharp swords are carried. But there is also a training combat section using wooden swords plus capped javelins and spears. I think most late Roman groups would now do something similar. You can use such a session to educate the public, for example to explain how the shield is used to parry not the sword, the correct fighting distances for various weapons, the importance of footwork and the heft of the weapon. At the same time sharp versions of the training weapons can be demonstrated to the crowd using a series of cutting exercises. The public can begin to identify and associate with individual soldiers who they can support and follow for the rest of the display.

I have not seen an Ermine Street guard display for many years but am pretty sure a section of their display would also involve such “armature” using training weapons.

The use of sharp weapons and training combats make displays very competitive and enjoyable for the members taking part. Some of us spend time practicing with various weapons to become more accomplished in their use, both on foot and on horseback. Compared to 25 years ago when I started, we can now source good quality sharp and blunt weapons and there are fighting systems to demonstrate most weapons. Roman re-enactors are lucky in that we can carry out such entertaining training combats as part of a display while still showing the public something worthwhile.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Richard, I think Henkspoint are 'fairly valid reasons'
People spend a lot of money on getting museum quality kit.
What we don't get is finacial backing and unlimited insurace claims to replace damaged kit.
And i think the rest of the reasons mentioned alos go a way to cover the reasons.
We can put on combat simulations, formations displays, and there are reasonable descriptions of combat by various sources, to know the aim of combat is to stab at any umguerded fleash, usually the face and groin, and also slashing at tendons.,

Their battles were described as bloody drill practice, and their drills as bloodless Battles...
We have used wooded swords on occassion, and also the idea of the needle felt has been put forward.
i think it just requires acceptance and commital to push this further here in the UK.

But the idea is mostly to try and show a authentic display of kit(as we can)

Anyway, a 'Cidre' Beckons, with my name on it! :grin:

Ciao Comiltones!! 8-)

[scotti73]

Thanks for the quality comments folks.I have no axe to grind on this subject. I can appreciate that people have museum quality kit that they don't wish to damage and fair play on that.But so do other periods. I also don't buy "its too dangerous", if people even consider using sharp swords in combat they need locking up (i can help here as its my day job). Many groups enjoy mock combat and some battles can look spectacular.
I really like the comitatus approach John, just doing drill can be boring for both the reenactor but also more importantly the paying customer.
I think the level of kit is great within the period and if people want to dress up in it and pose for photos thats great, but some of us would like to test the kit a little more.

[Doc]

I know that other periods also use expensive armor BUT as far as Roman armor is concerned, 1st C reproductions generally can be more expensive than the later Roman gear. Of course if you have one of those later Roman gilt silver helmets made exactly like the original, it will make a dent in the wallet. However, if you want custom made gear with the specs, materials, and functionality of the originals or at least as close as possible, 1st C gear is up there.

I would love to get involved in a mock battle BUT not with my gear since I am more of a private collector than a reenactor and do spend more money than most of the people who reenact.

My two cents.

[66kbm]

Reenactors....Living History.....Battle Reenactors
Each to thier own.
Kevin