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Why do 1st Century Roman groups avoid combat
#1
As a reenactor who has been involved with Roman reenactment on and off for the last twenty years or so, i've often asked myself why are combat demonstrations such a stigma. I've heard some crazy ideas in the past such as the tactics are too aggressive, stabbing with a gladius is too dangerous. I'd agrue that the tactics used by any army are dangerous.
I would personally love to see a reconstruction of an Early Imperial battle or something along the lines of what Comitatus do with exercitus type training.
One last comment, i'm not a nutter, just genuinely interested in peoples opinions,
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#2
IDK, here, in Hungary, we do full contact with normal weapons. Stabbing is dangerous? That's what your shield is for. Slashing is dangerous? That's what your helmet and armor is for.


I think it has something to do with this western culture of not being agressive even in childhood (boy do I loved settling arguments with fighting), and this air of tolerance. In this case combat reenacting can be seen as hateful, militaristic.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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#3
I'm not so sure thats it, we have numerous groups in the UK that recreate other periods of history who do combat demonstrations but i only konw of one UK group that does it in a Roman context.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#4
Well our group also does a bit of soldier fighting using blunted steel. I think one of the main reasons there so little soldirer fighting as opposed to gladiator fights is that many are afraid of getting their gear damaged as I can imagine a blunt sword whacking some of the scabbards or belts one sees could cause a bit of a dent. Also the fact that many groups have gladiator shows on the side which serve as something of a vent for peoples desire within groups for fighting and therefore there is no calling for legionaries/auxies having scraps between themselves. Thats just my own opinion of course and please correct me if im wrong.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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#5
Well at least in the USA the legal environment puts a severe limitation on any use of actual steel weapons, there is a good chance of being sued. Besides, after spending so much pecunia on an Albion gladius I wouldn't want it damaged. I think that is why the use of needle felt has become so popular.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
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#6
Well as far as swords getting damaged goes our group has two sets of swords, display swords (crap steel but pretty and pointy) and combat swords (blunted and strong steel). Same goes for shields, as a legionary group we use the traditional curved rectangle for parade and flat ovals for fighting.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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#7
Why don't you once make shield that are good for showing off as well as combat? We have only one set of shields: two layers of 6mm wood glued together, then we applied a coarse layer of linen soaked in glue to the front, and edged the whole thing with leather. Multiplying this with the 110*90cm dimensions, we get a fairly heavy (~9kg) shield, which is good for fighting against half drunk, two metres high germanic reenactors' axes, and good for showing people the weight/durability. Though 9kgs might be a bit much, it holds. You can always lighten it by using only 8-10mm of wood (I personally wouldn't go below 8, even with some durable, hard wood. My first shield of 6mm thick, hard wood without linen glueing was sliced in half in my hands during a battle scene, after a spear rammed it through like if it was paper. That will be a lifelong memory, I'm sure).
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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#8
Don't get me wrong, i'm not a believer in the wanton destruction of peoples kit, but that argument doesn't wash, do reenactors of other periods not take as much pride in their kit and spend equally large amounts of money as we do? Besides Late Romans do a fair bit of combat and the construction methods of scabbards are largely the same. Legionaries and Auxillaries can appear on opposing sides, numerous examples exist AD 69 will provide as many examples as you need. Besides the Romans fought many bloodless training battles using wood and wicker kit.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#9
I think it may be a combination of all the valid arguments. Health and safety in the UK goes to the extreme with some councils and some demonstrations would be disapproved without even being demonstrated although they do stage jousting and medieval shows. Also I think some people don't want their kit damaged as it's very expensive to acquire and then beat up. I would use my home built swords for a demo even if they got dented or damaged. I can always repair those.

Maybe if the most easily damaged items were made durable though not so pretty for combat staging then people wouldn't be so shy about the risk? But then that would make extra kit to lug about make and/or purchase. I would love to watch a good combat demo other than in movies
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#10
Most European first century Roman re-enactors avoid combat because their weapons are

MUSEUM QUALITY REPLICA PIECES

This means that our swords, pila, javelins, arrow tips, scorpion bolts et cetera are

SHARP AND DEADLY.

That is why we do not engage in mock battles.

There are no rules like in the Polish battle of Grunwold where you can only participate with blunt weapons and at least 3 mm thick plate armor.

Experiences during television recordings have proved that when a fully armed Roman unit in Cuneus formation bashes through a line of Celts (who were supposed to move away), people get badly hurt. skull fractures, deep cuts in thighs, ambulances all around.

Dont believe me ? Ask the Ermine Street Guard.

That is why we do not engage in combat.

At times with foamie weapons, Roman re-enactors do engage in combat :

[Image: PHO-09Jun12-165511.jpg]

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#11
Quote:Why don't you once make shield that are good for showing off as well as combat? We have only one set of shields: two layers of 6mm wood glued together, then we applied a coarse layer of linen soaked in glue to the front, and edged the whole thing with leather. Multiplying this with the 110*90cm dimensions, we get a fairly heavy (~9kg) shield, which is good for fighting against half drunk, two metres high germanic reenactors' axes, and good for showing people the weight/durability. Though 9kgs might be a bit much, it holds. You can always lighten it by using only 8-10mm of wood (I personally wouldn't go below 8, even with some durable, hard wood. My first shield of 6mm thick, hard wood without linen glueing was sliced in half in my hands during a battle scene, after a spear rammed it through like if it was paper. That will be a lifelong memory, I'm sure).

The main reason is that as a 1st century legionary group we use the tile shaped scuta for drill displays and the like. Dont get me wrong, our combat shields are fine for display as well, they are made in a similar way to what you just described (with rawhide edging stiched on too) It's just that they dont work as well as the tile shaped scuta for cuneum, testudo etc, not to mention it would be a nightmare when we fall in with other roman group for drill. We dont use the tile shaped ones for fighting partly because we havent yet tried curving wood for them and the ones we use are repainted depeeka scuta which cant stand up to much pounding.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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#12
This is why SCA uses rattan swords and padded crushing and thrusting weapons as well as armor strong enough to withstand those weapons. There are people in the SCA who have made laminated curved shields like you describe for years. They build a shield press curved in the desired curvature, glue the wood sheets together and clamp into the press which holds the laminate togehter in position until removed. Once you have a press to make them in, replacing destroyed shields isn't hard or aside from materials costs for moe wood and glue, not too costly. I would guess if gear like this could be replaced cheaply and easily, people wouldn't worry about them much. If Romans trained with wicker etc. for demonstration purposes, how would showing legionary training go using Roman training equipment? Maybe it could be made safer as a result, not damage that Albion gladius you had to sell your first born to buy, and only risk training gear? Perhaps tell spectators that showing them the combat whereby the Roman Legions conquered a mighty empire would be entertaining but highly dangerous ( after all, these combat techniques were designed to kill and were quite efficient for that purpose) one can watch the training legionaries underwent, and picture the Roman War Machine in action. The Romans wouldn't have risked their gear and lives for the purposes of training either. Its not like repairing and replacing would have been cheap or easy for the average Legionary grunt either. Recreating mass training exercises could be impressive . Throw in some testudos and other precision maneuvers too. Set up some straw men and heave some javelins or Pilae. Everyone's seen legionary battles in movies, show how they got to be that good. Some close order drill defensive and offensive maneuvers. I think combat or combat training displays could be done without getting killed or more importantly, messing up your good gear.
Caesar audieritis hoc
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#13
Okay if you're going to reply please have the courtesy to read the post first. Obviously sharp weapons wouldn't be used and as I've already said many combat groups have fantastic weapons and armour. Some of the 15th century groups in the UK spend in the region of the £5000 on a suit of armour which they wear on the battlefield. In the UK Spend there are hundreds of battle enactments every year with no health and safety issues.
Tactics like the cuneus are not restricted to Roman armies its used by vikings who called it a boars snout with in demonstrated as part of many battle reenactments.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#14
Besides not having a whole lot of participants here, the main reason is that we have no idea how Romans fought, or anyone else for that matter. No one trains for months, and no one knows how they trained, or tactics, or marching orders, or trumpet calls, or what signa did, or much of anything, insofar as conveying an historical impression to spectators. You are thus doing a disservice. After all, no one faces death when faking it, which is what you're doing. And even when faking it people get hurt since no one is trained.

Now, if you just like whacking away on each other for bragging rights, that is fine.
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#15
Fair point, and finally a really valid reason. It would however be a good testing ground for kit for example how often does the segmentata fall apart under rapid movement.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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