Why do 1st Century Roman groups avoid combat

[Augustus Janus]

Great videos guys. Nice one Amy. Swimming in full segmentata carrying all your gear is still an impossibility even for Michael Phelps in my opinion :-) I would think if the Roman soldiers wanted to cross a river they would have been required to strip down and float things across in some manner like log rafts etc.

Michal you guys are plain nuts but I would love to watch the battles. I can't believe you guys are hurling wooden poles over the ranks. Wow!


Question for you Evan, you say in the US it's illegal. Would that not be under state laws? Or is there a federal law banning fighting displays that I'm not aware of? If covered by state law then it would be illegal some places and legal in others.

Jim

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I think it's a state law actually, not federal. We do most of our events at either private or government events, our main event is on a state park, and the Italian Festival is hosted by the city of colombia, so most of that stuff isn't allowed.

The only place we ever fight is Castra Lafe, pretty much everyone from the US goes there and the Romans and Celts fight in Lafe Arkansas. Nothing non-period is allowed (except like first aid). That's allowed there because it's a private hosted event, but not exactly big. I think only like 40 people show up there on both sides. They're doing like a Bouddica thing this year I think.

[M. Demetrius]

State parks here in Texas are not friendly to sharp things, either. They shouldn't fuss about needledfelt, though, as it's so docile it doesn't cause any pain, but then again, the State has its regulations, and they have to go by them, whether a Ranger agrees or not. We don't do anything at state parks or similar places for that very reason.

For practice with not-lethal weapons, try a local high school on the weekend, they usually have a practice football/soccer field that is plenty of room. We have done that, and actually thrown steel points at a high school. Obviously, there are precautions you need to take, and they don't like it if you don't step on the divots.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Great videos guys. Nice one Amy. Swimming in full segmentata carrying all your gear is still an impossibility even for Michael Phelps in my opinion :-) I would think if the Roman soldiers wanted to cross a river they would have been required to strip down and float things across in some manner like log rafts etc.


Jim

Thats exactly what they did, Jim. :wink:

The one group recorded as swimming in their kit fully armoured were the Batavians.
It was one of their claims to fame which made them a specialist Auxillia unit.

however, watching the 'swimmer' he was not exactly doing what the whole group do. Looked more like he was being made to put his money where his mouth was. :grin: And it doesn't look like his feet have left the bottom. The guy in the seg is wadeing too. Ive seen that picture before on ~FB as well. Great photos though.

[Medicus matt]

Yes, I was aware that Britannia threw plumbatae but had not realised that you do so during your battles (am I correct to infer this from your post?). How do you manage to do this safely?

By using safety plumbatae... ;-)
Years ago (probably 1999), Britannia, ERA and some foreign chappies (Derk's "Exculacatores" I think it was) did the first joint event at Old Sarum and the Dutch lads bought about 100 of these new toys with them. ERA bought 50 of them after the show and they've now made their way into Britannia's arsenal.
A 'combat archery' speedblunt head replaces the pointy end, a large wooden bead replaces the lead weight...wallah! A safety plumbata.
Now obviously it doesn't hurtle to the ground with as much force as the real thing but, having a unit of infantry who have 5 each to hurl as they advance certainly adds a nice visual element to a combat display which is, first and foremost, supposed to be entertaining.

Next step is to train some of them to lob them in and teach the rest to flat throw them just after the shields of their enemies have been raised above their heads....

[Kegluneq]

The one group recorded as swimming in their kit fully armoured were the Batavians.
It was one of their claims to fame which made them a specialist Auxillia unit.

however, watching the 'swimmer' he was not exactly doing what the whole group do. Looked more like he was being made to put his money where his mouth was. :grin: And it doesn't look like his feet have left the bottom. The guy in the seg is wadeing too. Ive seen that picture before on ~FB as well. Great photos though.

The guy in mail looks like he was swimming properly, albeit with no extra kit (not even a sword belt - is he being punished?!). There's an interesting video here showing a guy from the MyArmoury forums trying to swim in plate armour - he manages ten feet in forward stroke, proving that falling into water wasn't an immediate death sentance in plate. With intensive, specialist trianing, it might be possible to swim in such a weight. That harness weighed 50lbs, for the sake of comparison.

In the case of the Batavians, I think the usual interpretation is that they swam with their horses, which could presumably carry the weight of the soldier's weapons leaving the Batavian either in his undergarments or armoured (mail might be worse than plate in this regard however). Anyone know how buoyant an auxiliary shield might be?

[Robert]

Some while ago some gents here in the Netherlands announced they would duplicate the Batavians and cross a modern day river. I did some research then trying to save them from a fatality and one of the things that struck me is that although the Batavians are descibed as crossing rivers in full kit, it doesn't say "swim" ... Well, at least not in the bits I came across. A horse can swim very strongly AND the rivers then did not resemble Dutch rivers now. Being a delta, we had rivers winding through broad floodplanes with changing beddings in undeep channels due to meandering frequently. This also means rivers were not very deep over large area's/ expanse's.
So how does a true Batavian cross a river in the most likely scenario? Ride the horse in as far as it will go walking, slide off and hold onto the pommel of the saddle, still able to steer your horse. The water will take most of the soldiers weight and the swimming horse will support the extra weight which would otherwise drag the soldier down. The horse pulls you towards the other bank, no floundering around in mail at all. Just stick with your horse, remount when it regains its footing and wring out your armour, then stick it to them :-)

Which is totally off topic, but perhaps of interest.

[Robert Vermaat]

Years ago (probably 1999), Britannia, ERA and some foreign chappies (Derk's "Exculacatores" I think it was) did the first joint event at Old Sarum and the Dutch lads bought about 100 of these new toys with them. ERA bought 50 of them after the show and they've now made their way into Britannia's arsenal.
A 'combat archery' speedblunt head replaces the pointy end, a large wooden bead replaces the lead weight...wallah! A safety plumbata.

Wow! I never knew that. We came across them years and years later, I never knew that Derk & friends were the first to introduce them...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The one group recorded as swimming in their kit fully armoured were the Batavians.
It was one of their claims to fame which made them a specialist Auxillia unit.

however, watching the 'swimmer' he was not exactly doing what the whole group do. Looked more like he was being made to put his money where his mouth was. :grin: And it doesn't look like his feet have left the bottom. The guy in the seg is wadeing too. Ive seen that picture before on ~FB as well. Great photos though.

The guy in mail looks like he was swimming properly, albeit with no extra kit (not even a sword belt - is he being punished?!). There's an interesting video here showing a guy from the MyArmoury forums trying to swim in plate armour - he manages ten feet in forward stroke, proving that falling into water wasn't an immediate death sentance in plate. With intensive, specialist trianing, it might be possible to swim in such a weight. That harness weighed 50lbs, for the sake of comparison.

In the case of the Batavians, I think the usual interpretation is that they swam with their horses, which could presumably carry the weight of the soldier's weapons leaving the Batavian either in his undergarments or armoured (mail might be worse than plate in this regard however). Anyone know how buoyant an auxiliary shield might be?

Yes, I am aware of that. I'm pretty sure the horses did most of the work! Also most soldiers would remove their kit and keep it out of the water. I wonder how bouyant any shield is to be honest.
However, I disagree on the guy in mail, he is taking water, he may have swan a couple of strokes, if that.

[Semisalis Abruna]

A couple of things to add perhaps off topic but related to comments above.

Many years ago, when I was in the old Dark Ages Society (1983-4ish), I watched one of the members swim about 2,000 metres back & forth across a lake at Thorpe Park wearing a sword & mail shirt and pushing his shield before him like a swimming float. He was an ex-schools swimming champion & was proving that bits in Beowulf about them swimming in armour could have happened.

The old groups I was involved with (Viroconium Militia, Numerus Aelius etc) used blunt headed plumbatae and leather headed javelins in the early 90s too. The Numerus Aelius chaps had a great scripted openner for events where they deliberately put a pretty sharp plumbata into a shield on the flank of the opposing line! Ah, the Good Old Days.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Interesting!
Vikings are nuts though..

[Semisalis Abruna]

Vikings are nuts though..

Very True! :lol:

[Augustus Janus]

I think it safe to say we are in general agreement that an average person just could not swim with all their kit on.

Would they have possibly had some float device to aid them maybe? an empty canteen would be little help. An inflated shield cover might function if waterproof or generally inflatable if made of leather especially. Is there any historical mention of these items ever being utilized for such a purpose?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Didn't the Assyrians use Goat Skins?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, but I seem to recall some one quoting Caesar as having instructed his troops to use inflated skins to cross something......I can't recall reading it in his commentaries, but that means nothing!