That is a very interesting point that the scorpion would have been widespread and present anywhere as the ultimate symbol associated with the praetorians especially on coins where many commemorations are seen with the symbols being prominent for a particular group, emperor etc.
BTW, although a little off topic, does anyone have a good photo of Louvre relief showing the supposed praetorians. I would like to have a good look at their helmets.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)
I wish the Louvre had what the British Museum has where you can order for free good high qualtiy pictures of whatever they have in their database. Maybe the Louvre has it and I do not know about it.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)
That is a very good photo. As always, I wonder what the back of the helmet shows hock:
I remember being interested in having the Prima Porta armor duplicated and I have seen the actual statue a few times in Rome BUT it never dawned on me that I should photograph the back. :lol:
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)
Quote:As the title suggests, how do we know that the men on that relief are praetorians? Is there an inscription or is it assumed that because they are near the emperor, they must be the Guard or is it the scorpion depiction that supposedly identifies them as praetorians.
That fact that these Flavian soldiers carry oval shaped shields fits the theory that the Praetorians (and the Urban Cohorts) wore semi-archaic armor. We have a Montefortino belonging to an infantryman from the 12th Urban Cohort (see Connolly, The Roman Army, pg. 43).
And, yes, their close proximity to the emperor alone might suggest Praetorian status. The soldiers surrounding the emperor in the Trajanic and Aurelian columns almost invariably wear 'Attic' helmets which may suggest they're Praetorians (OTOH it could also mark them as tribunes of either Praetorian or Legionary rank, I suppose.)
Since the Cancelleria reliefs come from Rome I think the soldiers being honored are most likely to be Praetorian. Legionaries on the frontier would never see them.
Quote:However, since I have seen praetorian sculptures with different shields and because I remember it being mentioned that there was a relief with praetorians wearing helmets that had scorpions on them, then I thought a variation to normal legionary equipment being used would be a breath of fresh air.
The helmets with the scorpion on the cheek pieces comes from the Louvre Relief, the soldier(s) in the background shows it. The background helmets are originals, not restored (IIRC).
According to Rankov in "The Praetorian Guard" Osprey, some soldiers on the Great Trajanic Frieze have scorpion on the cheek-pieces of their helmets too. Sadly I do not have good enough pictures to demonstrate this for sure, but may be the photo below shows one of them?
[attachment=3645]helmet.JPG[/attachment]
There is another one clearly visible on a picture in the book itself, but currently I do not have a scanner available to post a picture. It is the soldier on the photo below, but unfortunately the scorpion is not discernible very well. (The shape of the Frieze on the Arch of Constantine from which my photos are, seems to be worse and worse, so the details are not clearly visible any more. Rankov's pictures are, I suppose, from some plaster casts.)
[attachment=3646]soldier.JPG[/attachment]
Certainly there are scorpions on the shield of one of the cavalrymen on the Great Trajanic Frieze (shown above by Duncan).
Quote:I have made a brief numismatic research about the coinage where elements of cohors praetoria appears (or are interpreted as such) - If the Scorpio was the distinctive emblem of the Praetorians, why the coinage doesn’t show him with a certain regularity?
When celebrates their Fides, Concordia [etc.], reminds some events where the Praetorians are directly connected, or it simply represents them...
Furthermore, it seems that in the coins representations the standards (and the eagles) are similar to the "normal" troops, also that one who came out from the wall of the castra praetoria.
Again according to Rankov there is a scorpion on one coin of Caligula of the type shown above (ADLOCVTIO COHORTIUM). Well I haven't seen that coin, but may be someone of you can find it and show to us.
Quote:He also lists the Berlin helmeted sculptural head which has a scorpion on the cheek-piece
Quote:The helmets with the scorpion on the cheek pieces comes from the Louvre Relief, the soldier(s) in the background shows it.
You have better eyesight than me. Or Durry. He wrote (about the background figures): "Il est grand dommage qu'on ne voie que les têtes de ces deux soldats, et même qu'on ne puisse distinguer l'ornement particulier de leurs garde-joues." ("It's a great pity that we can only see the heads of these two soldiers, and that we cannot make out the particular ornamentation on their cheek-pieces") Durry wondered if they might have shown "des foudres, des scorpions?" ("some thunderbolts, some scorpions?") but was unable to say. He quotes a study of the relief by E. Michon, who also wrote that "The representation is so indistinct that it is difficult to say anything."
Again according to Rankov there is a scorpion on one coin of Caligula of the type shown above (ADLOCVTIO COHORTIUM). Well I haven't seen that coin, but may be someone of you can find it and show to us.
Good Day to Everyone,
after having read the reply of Mr. Alexandr, I have checked the monetary corpora: - Mattingly Harold - Coins of the Roman Empire in the British Museum. Vol I Augustus to Vitellius (pp. 150-1639, plate 28-29)
- RIC VOL 1 : Augustus to Vitellius (pp. 112-123)
and I have not found the coin with the presumed Scorpio.
The only coin of Caligula that show a in the Reverse ADLOCVT (above) and COH (in ex) is a Sestertius, whit variations in the representation of the Emperor and the soldiers, perhaps according to different mints(Rome or Lugdunum).
Rankov give same bibliographical information for better find the “scorpion coin”?
Again according to Rankov there is a scorpion on one coin of Caligula of the type shown above (ADLOCVTIO COHORTIUM). Well I haven't seen that coin, but may be someone of you can find it and show to us.
Good Day to Everyone,
after having read the reply of Mr. Alexandr, I have checked the monetary corpora: - Mattingly Harold - Coins of the Roman Empire in the British Museum. Vol I Augustus to Vitellius (pp. 150-1639, plate 28-29)
- RIC VOL 1 : Augustus to Vitellius (pp. 112-123)
and I have not found the coin with the presumed Scorpio.
The only coin of Caligula that show in the Reverse ADLOCVT (above) and COH (in ex) is a Sestertius, whit variations in the representation of the Emperor and the soldiers, perhaps according to different mints (Rome, Lugdunum).
Rankov give same bibliographical information for better find the “scorpion coin”?
Quote:Rankov give same bibliographical information for better find the “scorpion coin”?
I think Rankov is mistaken. There is apparently a coin of Galba (pictured here) that shows a scorpion as a shield emblem, but other examples of this particular die do not show the scorpion. Strange.
Not so strange considering that different artisans made different dies each putting there own touches to the engraving. When it comes to the same die as they wore some details may be lost or even changed when it was re-cut.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
Quote:Not so strange considering that different artisans made different dies each putting there own touches to the engraving. Also dies were re-cut as they wore so some details may be lost or changed depending on who re-cut it.
I wasn't aware that artisans had a free hand in coin design. Can you demonstrate this? As for wearing out, do you think there would be much wear during a six-month reign? :?
Not so much a free reign but as long as the legend and the basic design was there it is to be expected. I'll post some when I get back home but many coins of the same type show different design elements.
6 months is a short time but off the top of my head I think of the 3 Emperor's (Galba, Otho and Vitellius) Galba struck the most coinage.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
hock: 
