Cancelleri Relief...Praetorians? How do we know?

[Doc]

As the title suggests, how do we know that the men on that relief are praetorians? Is there an inscription or is it assumed that because they are near the emperor, they must be the Guard or is it the scorpion depiction that supposedly identifies them as praetorians.

Thanks

[D B Campbell]

... or is it the scorpion depiction that supposedly identifies them as praetorians.

No scorpions on the Cancelleria (as far as I know). The Cancelleria has the moon and stars motif, I think.

[S. Marcer]

Here is a detail of the oval shields in the Cancelleria relief

[attachment=3609]RilievodellaCancelleriaVaticano.jpg[/attachment]

[PhilusEstilius]

I am just trying to recall where it was shown that the Praetorians have a Scorpion symbol, I'm not sure if it is some where in the Louvre museum figures.
There shields do of course show that they had crescents and star designs on them, however I am sure there is the scorpion symbol for some time back I was asked by the 2nd Augusta group to produce one for them and the picture I now cannot put my hand on.

[Doc]

Thanks for the responses. I think as you mentioned Mr. Campbell, it is the shield motifs. I may have gotten it confused with another depiction. This must be the case because I originally thought that these men wore helmets with the scorpion on the cheekpieces.

There is a sculpture showing some kind of helmet with scorpions on cheeckpieces identifying the individual(s) as praetorian. Maybe its on Trajan's Column?

[Doc]

Brian, you may be right and as I mentioned above, I confused the two. :oops:

[PhilusEstilius]

Paolo.
That is so right as you say now when I come to think of it I did make cheekplates for a helmet that had to have a Scorpion relief on them.

[S. Marcer]

Good evening to everybody,

Maybe its on Trajan's Column?

Paolo, I also remember something on the column, but honestly I don't remember the scene…
A Scorpio appears on a soldier’s shield in the Nile mosaic of Palestrina, but we speak here of the end of the II century BC....
S.M.

[D B Campbell]

There is a sculpture showing some kind of helmet with scorpions on cheeckpieces identifying the individual(s) as praetorian. Maybe its on Trajan's Column?

You raise an interesting point, which prompted me to do a little digging -- always a good idea. :wink:

Durry (standard work on the Praetorians: Les cohortes prétoriennes, Paris 1938) thought that the scorpion was probably a Praetorian insignia, and he justified it by reference to the emperor Tiberius' zodiacal sign (Tiberius could be considered something of a founding father of the Praetorians). Durry lists the tombstone of M. Pompeius Asper (CIL 14, 2523 = ILS 2662), which depicts signa with scorpion symbols:
[attachment=3622]ILS2662_Grabstein_MarcusPompeiusAsper.jpg[/attachment]
(Apparently, Domaszewski had already suggested this, in his study of Roman standards.)

He also lists the Berlin helmeted sculptural head which has a scorpion on the cheek-piece, and the Trajanic reliefs from the Arch of Constantine, where the scorpion can be seen on a shield.
[attachment=3623]ArchOfConstantine_Trajanic-shield.jpg[/attachment]

The scorpion also appears (unbeknownst to Durry) on a shield on the Trajanic relief from Puteoli which is now in Philadelphia. As far as I can see, there is no particular reason to assume that all of these depicted Praetorians.

[Doc]

Mr. Campbell,

Thanks for the reply. I agree that we cannot say that every depiction, sculpture, etc that has a scoprion automatically indicates a praetorian since the association with Tiberius is rather loose.

However, at the same time, I do not think that it would be too far fetched it is plausible.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

What proof do these shields give us that they are Praetorians ? Are there any classical sources mentioning the difference in shields of either Legionaries, Cavalrymen or Praetorians? Or is that a thing deduced from reliefs..........

M.VIB.M.

[Doc]

Hello Henk,

Hence my question. In other words, I would like a helmet made for a praetorian impression. There is no reason to believe that their helmets were any different than normal legionary helmets. However, since I have seen praetorian sculptures with different shields and because I remember it being mentioned that there was a relief with praetorians wearing helmets that had scorpions on them, then I thought a variation to normal legionary equipment being used would be a breath of fresh air. Oh well :-(

However, as mentioned by Mr. Campbell, the best we can do is the association with Tiberius.

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

It's an interesting idea about the scorpions being associated with the Praetorians because of Tiberius but there were Praetorians well before Tiberius also. Mark Antony honored them with a legionary type denarius CHORTIVM PRAETORIARVM and it had the same basic design as the normal Legion types. There were also other elite troops such as Antony's cohort of SPECVLATORES which apparently didn't survive after Actium . On Antony's coinage there is really no distinction to separate the various legions and special troops. They all had the same basic design of the legionary eagle and standards.

Praetorian:
[attachment=3624]Prae.jpg[/attachment]

Normal Legionary:

[attachment=3625]normal_LEG_IV_001.jpg[/attachment]

[D B Campbell]

It's an interesting idea about the scorpions being associated with the Praetorians because of Tiberius but there were Praetorians well before Tiberius also. Mark Antony honored them with a legionary type denarius CHORTIVM PRAETORIARVM and it had the same basic design as the normal Legion types.

Which helps the argument for a Tiberian scorpion. But the Barberini mosaic (which shows the scorpion motif, too) is thought to be of Republican date.

I am more than a little suspicious that depictions of soldiers who are virtually certain to be Praetorians (e.g. Louvre relief, soldiers attending the emperor on Trajan's Column, etc.) do not show a prominent scorpion motif. If this was supposed to be the special mark of the Praetorians, shouldn't we expect to see it more often? :?

[S. Marcer]

D B Campbell wrote:

If this was supposed to be the special mark of the Praetorians, shouldn't we expect to see it more often?

As mentioned by Mr. Campbell, I believe that this is the most important point to keep in mind.
I have made a brief numismatic research about the coinage where elements of cohors praetoria appears (or are interpreted as such) - If the Scorpio was the distinctive emblem of the Praetorians, why the coinage doesn’t show him with a certain regularity?
When celebrates their Fides, Concordia [etc.], reminds some events where the Praetorians are directly connected, or it simply represents them...
Furthermore, it seems that in the coins representations the standards (and the eagles) are similar to the "normal" troops, also that one who came out from the wall of the castra praetoria.


1- Civil War Denarius, 69 AD, Southern Gaul (?).
Obv: FIDES / EXERCITVVM, clasped hands.
Rev.: CONCORDIA PRAETORIANORVM, Concordia standing left, right holding branch, left cornucopia.
RIC I, 118

[attachment=3627]1_2012-04-03.jpg[/attachment]

2- Brass sestertius of Caligula; 39-41 AD, Rome
Rev. ADLOCVT[io] COH[ortium], referring to cohortes praetoriae.
Barbara McManus, 2005

[attachment=3628]2_2012-04-03.jpg[/attachment]

3- Gold coin of Claudius, 41-54 CE
Rev. IMPERRECPT
Coin depicts the Praetorian Camp (castra praetoria) in Rome, including standards and a member of the Praetorian Guard.
J. Henry Middleton, The Remains of Ancient Rome. Vol. II, fig. 88, p. 234, 1892

[attachment=3629]3_2012-04-03.jpg[/attachment]

4- Copper Roman Provincial Coin, 42 AD
Rev. 3 COHOR PRAE COL PIIIL (Praetorian Cohort Philippi) Praetorian Cohort Standards
(commemorative of the Battle of Philippi and an attempt by Claudius to honor the Praetorian Guards of his time)
RPC (Roman Provincial Coinage) #1651

[attachment=3630]4.JPG[/attachment]