Scale Armor & Accuracy

[PhilusEstilius]

Chistian.

I don't think I would agree for it is no more of a pose than we see with just about all centurians on their tomb stones and there is no other opinion than it being a rear fastening type of scale, then besides that what is your meaning of modified armour and just the right arm for that indeed is holding a vitis as any centurian would do.

[Kegluneq]

Then of course as you mention it is where the soldier would need some help in putting this armour on, however soldiers do tend to stick together and help one another a fine example look at the guys who yomped over the Falklands they had to help each other to get those back packs on.

That's a good point - presumably legionaries in segmented armour had the same problem!

The pose reminds me a bit of Michaelangelo's David, although presumably there's a closer classical parallel for this pose. It does look quite heroic, with the turned head and raised left shoulder.

Out of interest, do reenactors who wear scale ever overheat in the armour and open up the side to cool down a little? If that doesn't really happen fair enough, but it would be much harder with a rear closing lorica.

[Doc]

How about the sleeves on the Sertorius Stela? Does anyone think they are artistic liscence as well? Sleeves can be made without a
problem. However, the question is did squamata really have sleeves or is this depiction a poor attempt at showing some sort of
mantle.

[markusaurelius]

However, the question is did squamata really have sleeves or is this depiction a poor attempt at showing some sort of
mantle.

There are just too many examples in the images of the period that show scale with sleeves that I think they are all mantles. They must have been made quite frequently with sleeves IMO.

[Doc]

Markus, I am not sure I understand your answer. You said that since there are so many examples with sleeves that they must
all be mantles?? Then you went on to say that they are sleeves in your opinion.

Did you mean to say that there are so many with sleeves that they cannot all be mantles?

[markusaurelius]

Ya sorry for the confusion :oops: . I can't see them all being mantles, if any. So many have very clearly defined sleeves, and not a mantle showing that I lean more towards sleeves than a mantle.
[attachment=5965]squamatasleeves1.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5966]squamatasleeves2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5967]squamatasleeves3.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5968]squamatasleeves4.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5969]squamatasleeves5.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5970]squamatasleeves6.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5971]squamatasleeves7.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5972]squamatasleeves8.jpg[/attachment]

[markusaurelius]

[attachment=5973]squamatasleeves9.jpg[/attachment]

[Doc]

No problem. Thanks for the pics. However, to me the men in those attachments look as if they are mostly from the late empire
whereas one looks like it comes from Trajans column. How about 1st C AD, I only know of Sertorius and his aquilifer with the sleeves.

[PhilusEstilius]

Doc.

Scale armour can be made with sleeves very easy for the rows of scales can be adjusted when they reach the chest area, so that when they reach the shoulders the scales are at 90 degrees to the line of the torso. Then with shaped pieces of leather or material this new line of scale can now be taken down the arm but not of course closed under the armpit which helps to give arm movement.

[Gunthamund Hasding]

Sure Markus, could be also from as horse armour. The Legion in Potaissa was the Leg V Macedonia, being from 166 - 274 in Potaissa. As seen in Wikipedia they have fought as a mobile cavalry unit the campaign against Ingenuus in 260.

The following link is from the local museum. If I translate the text with an online translator, it just says: "The fragment shows the neck over the shoulder neckline and slightly back", which sounds for me to be human used. The size of the scales may give a hint, but this is missing in the short text. Maybe someone has one of the mentioned books?
http://muzeu-turda.cimec.ro/Exponatulvir...fault.aspx

well as it happens i am romanian and i was very interested in this piece, i planed to go to turda this summer unfortunatelly the museum was closed
the website explains the things as such:

Din această categorie face parte şi o bucată dintr-o cămaşă de zale, lorica squamata, cu aproape 3000 de solzi din bronz. Fragmentul reprezintă partea de peste umeri cu răscroiala la gât şi puţin din spate. Faptul că s-a conservat ţesătura din pânză de in a dat posibilitatea studierii modalităţii în care şiragurile de solzi de bronz se coseau în suportul textil. ...

Bibliografie:

Mihai Bărbulescu, Din istoria militară a Daciei romane. Legiunea V Macedonica şi castrul de la Potaissa, Cluj-Napoca, 1987;


this will translate as:
From the aboved mentioned category we have a part of an scale mail, lorica squamata, with almost 3000 scales made of bronze. The fragment represents the shoulder part with the neckline as well as a little part from the back. The fact that the linen canvas was conserved allowed the possibility to study the modality trough wich lenghts of scales were sew on the canvas....

I have read the book as well unforunatelly there is not much more to find in it
maybe i will be able to visit the museum when i will be arround this winter, I am living in Germany,
if i can get more info i will poste it here

[markusaurelius]

Hi Gelu,

Thanks for the post/translation. Maybe this is lost in translation, however is the notation implying that the fragment has over 3000 scales? If so they are either extremely small, or it is part of a much larger piece (such as horse). Just because it states it is part of the neck, does not to me mean it is for use on a person. Clearly the horse armor known has scales around the neck area.

My reproduced scale armor, made to the right scale size (at lease one known type) has 3300 scales for the whole piece. If only the neck area for this fragment has that many, then those scales must be microscopic!

[Gunthamund Hasding]

Markus
I have tried since long to see if I can get the measurements for the scles unfortunatelly to no avail. Mr. Barbulescu didn't publish the piece as stand alone but in a monograph so info not enough. people that saw the piece told me tat the scales are small 1cm/0.5 cm but is just an "eyemetric" measurement

[Vindex]

Not scale as the main topic under discussion here (and certainly not sewn onto a backing as you can see) but this armour from Caerleon is scale in effect and not very big at all. I am firmly in the chamfron camp here...probably on my own! ;-) but it potentially puts small "scale" into an equestrian context.
[attachment=6017]Large-section-of-scale-armour-before-removal.jpg[/attachment]

[PhilusEstilius]

Moi.

I remember this topic and subject from not so long ago where there was a vine leaf with a face that gave indication of a possible chamfron, however looking yet again at these pieces I begin to think that this might even be a type of horse body armour with an overlap design similar to scale, off topic again of course.

[Vindex]

Except there isn't very much of it and no, we don't want to stray too far off topic. I merely put it up in the context of very small and possibly cavalry related.