Quote:I thought Stilicho Holds a Hasta/Contus in that Dyptch? The Spicula was weighted and was a leaf-blad head on an iron shaft like a pilum, I'll get my source for this must pull up the file, but the modern reconstructions depict it that way.
Stilicho's spear is only a Leaf-Blade head on a wooden pole.
As far as I am aware there is only one description of the Spiculum, and that is by Vegetius, and it does not match your description I am afraid-
'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty. At present they are seldom used by us, but are the principal weapon of the barbarian heavy-armed foot. They are called bebrae, and every man carries two or three of them to battle.'
'Their offensive weapons were large swords, called spathae, and smaller ones called semispathae together with five loaded javelins (a mistranslation of martiobarbuli or plumbata, in other words darts) in the concavity of the shield, which they threw at the first charge. They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum.'
It is obvious from the first quotation that the spear similar to the barbarian 'bebrae' is in fact the Spiculum noted in the second quotation.
If you look at the length of the spear Stilicho is holding it appears to be about the length of the spiculum as described by Vegetius, hence my mooting if it is in fact the spiculum he is holding rather a contus which should by rights be about 8' to 12' in length. I am not sure how long a hasta was during the Late Roman period?
Quote:I am guessing this is a little early, but might it not be a precursor to the spicula?
Recogbnising where that image comes from, frankly I am in some doubt if it's not too good to be true. About the dating, well, that same website is regularly suggesting that plumbatae date to the 1st-2nd century, so I guess it's really anybody's guess to the real date of that object... Could be 2nd-3rd c., could be 3rd c. BC, could be 6th c. AD.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Quote: It is obvious from the first quotation that the spear similar to the barbarian 'bebrae' is in fact the Spiculum noted in the second quotation.
I disagree:
1)"javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles"
2)"a triangular head of iron nine inches long".
You notice the difference? It's a bit bold to state that these are one and the same weapon. Whether the bebra was the same weapon as the one we also know by the name angon or not I don't know, it's very hard to distinguish weapons in ancient sources that looked alike. The ancients did not use a handbook in which weapons were know by a strict terminology, alas.
Quote: If you look at the length of the spear Stilicho is holding it appears to be about the length of the spiculum as described by Vegetius, hence my mooting if it is in fact the spiculum he is holding rather a contus which should by rights be about 8' to 12' in length. I am not sure how long a hasta was during the Late Roman period?
We can't tell how long Stilicho's weapon is meant to be, but in this case it looks like a fairly normal thrusting spear, not a throwing spear like the spiculum. Often, spear lengths in art are adjusted to the length of the object (dyptich, funeral stone). In some images though, we can see the full length. A common length of a heavy infantry spear (hasta/contos) can be between 6 to 9 ft.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
ValentinianVictrix post=306249 Wrote:It is obvious from the first quotation that the spear similar to the barbarian 'bebrae' is in fact the Spiculum noted in the second quotation.
I disagree:
1)"javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles"
2)"a triangular head of iron nine inches long".
You notice the difference? It's a bit bold to state that these are one and the same weapon. Whether the bebra was the same weapon as the one we also know by the name angon or not I don't know, it's very hard to distinguish weapons in ancient sources that looked alike. The ancients did not use a handbook in which weapons were know by a strict terminology, alas.
Quote: If you look at the length of the spear Stilicho is holding it appears to be about the length of the spiculum as described by Vegetius, hence my mooting if it is in fact the spiculum he is holding rather a contus which should by rights be about 8' to 12' in length. I am not sure how long a hasta was during the Late Roman period?
We can't tell how long Stilicho's weapon is meant to be, but in this case it looks like a fairly normal thrusting spear, not a throwing spear like the spiculum. Often, spear lengths in art are adjusted to the length of the object (dyptich, funeral stone). In some images though, we can see the full length. A common length of a heavy infantry spear (hasta/contos) can be between 6 to 9 ft.
I think you have missed a very pertinent part of both those quotes I gave.
Here are the two sentences that one needs to note-
1. 'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles'
2. 'They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum.'
So, we have a spear that Vegetius equates to the weapon formally called the pilum, but that Vegetius now calls the Spiculum and he makes references to this weapon in two different books of his work. It may well be the case that Vegetius forgot what he wrote in Book one when he wrote the passage in Book two, something that is not uncommon for authors to do especially if they are writing on individual sheets of parchment or similar material as opposed to typing on a computer (and even then it appears modern authors using computers to compose their works are not imune from this type of error).
Quote:We can't tell how long Stilicho's weapon is meant to be, but in this case it looks like a fairly normal thrusting spear, not a throwing spear like the spiculum. Often, spear lengths in art are adjusted to the length of the object (dyptich, funeral stone). In some images though, we can see the full length. A common length of a heavy infantry spear (hasta/contos) can be between 6 to 9 ft.
This is the image in question, which no one has managed to post, and it clearly depicts a spear approximately 6-7 feet in length, assuming Stilicho is approximately 6 feet tall. I personally believe it to be a Hasta or Contarion of some sort.
Quote:I think you have missed a very pertinent part of both those quotes I gave.
[..]
It may well be the case that Vegetius forgot what he wrote in Book one when he wrote the passage in Book two, something that is not uncommon for authors to do especially if they are writing on individual sheets of parchment or similar material as opposed to typing on a computer (and even then it appears modern authors using computers to compose their works are not imune from this type of error).
I did not miss it. Vegetius mentions the pilum in quote one (assuming his 'piles' is a mistake for 'pila'), and he mentions a spiculum in quote two, mentioning a shorter length even though he equates it with the former pilum.
So either he's mistaken about the length (could be) or about the lineage of the spiculum.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Quote:I think you have missed a very pertinent part of both those quotes I gave.
Here are the two sentences that one needs to note-
1. 'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles'
2. 'They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum.'
So, we have a spear that Vegetius equates to the weapon formally called the pilum, but that Vegetius now calls the Spiculum and he makes references to this weapon in two different books of his work. It may well be the case that Vegetius forgot what he wrote in Book one when he wrote the passage in Book two, something that is not uncommon for authors to do especially if they are writing on individual sheets of parchment or similar material as opposed to typing on a computer (and even then it appears modern authors using computers to compose their works are not imune from this type of error).
This is the problem with relying on translations. Both the quotations come from Lt. Clarke's 1767 translation. In the Latin, they read as follows:
1. Missibilis autem quibus utebatur pedestris exercitus pila vocabantur, ferro subtili trigono praefixa unciarum novem sive pedali . . . (Veg. 1.20.20)
2. . . . item bina missibilia, unum maius ferro triangulo unciarum novem, hastili pedum quinque semis, quod pilum vocabant, nunc spiculum dicitur . . . (Veg. 2.15.5)
There is no substantial difference in the descriptions. In the first, Vegetius gives a measurement of nine inches or a foot, in the second, nine inches. 'Piles' and eleven inches appear to be errors made by Clarke.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Quote:There is no substantial difference in the descriptions. In the first, Vegetius gives a measurement of nine inches or a foot, in the second, nine inches. 'Piles' and eleven inches appear to be errors made by Clarke.
And so it seems. Milner does not repeat these errors.
Well, back to my initial position: in Book II.15 Vegetius describes the 'ancient legion' using the pilum (referring that their name in his day is spiculum). In Book I.20 he describes the army in his own day, and mentions that the pilum is used by barbarian infantry (calling them 'bebrae'), but that 'weapons of this type are now rare with us'.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Interestingly, the first passage quoted above, after dealing with the use of pila/bebrae by the barbarian shield-bearing infantry, continues (Veg. 1.20.22):
"It should be noted, also, that where missiles are being exchanged, soldiers should have the left foot forward: this way the throw is stronger for hurling spicula." (Adapted from Milner's translation by substituting spicula, from the original Latin spiculis, for his 'darts'.)
Thus, references to spiculum are found, in effect, in both the passages cited.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Quote:Thus, references to spiculum are found, in effect, in both the passages cited.
yes and no. How do you explain that description of the exchange with the statement that those weapons were in fact rare? Is he even speaking about one type of weapon or is he perhaps thinking of spicula as a more generic term for throwing spears? Confusing.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
I confess I was having to use the Clark translation as it was the quickest one to find, not having my Milner translation to hand. I could also have consulted the Latin text on line before posting, doh!
Anyway, I think it is fairly safe to say that the Spiculum was a heavy spear designed either to throw like the pilum it replaced or to be retained in hand to be used as an offensive hadn to hand weapon. Pila appear to still have been in use but rarely by the time Vegetius wrote, but were still used on occasion and I am mindful of two passages in Ammianus where during the reigns of Valentinian I and Valens troops threw 'pilis' in battle.
Thanks once again to Michael who does the digging about I unfortunately lack the time for at present.
Just while there is all this spear expertise focused on this thread, is there any chance this is the remains of a Spiculum?
[attachment=2964]northantsarchaeo.jpg[/attachment]
I've split this part of the discussion off from the 'dimensions of Late Roman spearheads' into a new thread: 'Vegetius and the pilum'.
Quote: Anyway, I think it is fairly safe to say that the Spiculum was a heavy spear designed either to throw like the pilum it replaced or to be retained in hand to be used as an offensive hadn to hand weapon.
Tht we agree upon.
Quote: Pila appear to still have been in use but rarely by the time Vegetius wrote, but were still used on occasion and I am mindful of two passages in Ammianus where during the reigns of Valentinian I and Valens troops threw 'pilis' in battle.
Can't follow you there. The archeological record, as far as I know, doesn't either. The 'pilis' of Ammianus are, if not a generic word for 'javelins', likely to be as anachonistic as his 'gladii' or his 'Parthians', as widely recognised.
Quote: Thanks once again to Michael who does the digging about I unfortunately lack the time for at present.
Agreed! :wink:
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
