Greek Helmets. with or without crests.... ??

[Gulan]

No it's not. What is depicted in the pottery is definitely a box with hair mounted within it. Your crest example is a solid bronze one that is meant to mimic the hair crest.

The 5th century is really where the art and tactics of the Phalanx are really perfected as is the equipment and ornamentation of Hoplites. The Pelopennesian War doesn't have heavy phalanx style battles because it is more a cold war. Battles of any kind are rare and when they occur they can display unusual tactics and freer thinking than traditional Phalanxial warfare. The crests factor into this not one bit.

Wood crest boxes, wood shields, wood spears etc is not modern logic or solely my point of view. It's actually widely evidenced in the archeology. You're picking an argument just to have an argument and obviously haven't read or seen as much to move you from a stubborn points of view. The bronze shield rims you mention are not carved bronze, they a extremely thin bronze repousse. It's fairly easy to do and not terribly hard just time consuming. The example of this is singular though about 4 other whole shield faces exist. Out of hundreds of thousands of shield just this handful exist and so they are judged as rare and expensive. Generally such fine equipment was dedicated and the lesser quality equipment kept or distributed so their mere presence is not an argument that all Hoplites had bronze faced shields. In fact the far greater number of bronze shield appliqués makes the point that this was a far more common shield decoration.

To use these artifacts to make statements they the easy way was not what they did or that they used unadvisable is spurious. Above anything if you actually see these objects you realize everything they did was extremely thought out and well engineered. You make them sound unsophisticated and wasteful. A wooden crest box with horsehair is feasible, logical and falls in line with the general practices of everything else they created in the period. You're trying to make the point that because we can't find one or that no helmet in a museum has a crest that therefore they didn't exist. That's about like saying that because we don't have all the corpses of the ancient Greeks that they to we're imaginary.

The references to Spartan dog tags and other military innovation as well as crests in colors are easily found if you read. Even the pottery shows solid, bi and tricolored crests in use. There is nothing contrived or assumed in these notions. They are documented and not things I've assumed or made up with 'my logics' as you say. I'd advise you to read more and argue less.

The point of this thread was to point out whether they used crests or not. They did, no one has ever disputed this. Were they made of wood? I can't think that lumps of terra cotta, or heavy bronze ones were and most any other material would be unsuitable. The 'assumption' of wood is grounded in fact and practicality as many other items in use by Hoplites were also wooden. That contemporary cultures also used wood for military equipment and accoutrements as well as ornamental fixtures like crests.

But I'm sure your response will be just another attempt to further a senseless argument.

''You're trying to make the point that because we can't find one or that no helmet in a museum has a crest that therefore they didn't exist. That's about like saying that because we don't have all the corpses of the ancient Greeks that they to we're imaginary.'

Not at all. My point is it was certainly not as common as is in the pottery. You are the one trying to proove point by the lack of evidence itself - ''it was organic that is why we don't have any''..And when I show you that there is, but in bronze. You say - well it was votive. You try to fit the history and evidence into your assumtions, and you should be doing the exact opposite. :grin: :!:

We differ in many key points that make our discussion pointless. Beginning with the 6th century not being the most typical century for heavy phalanx combat, and archeology supporting wooden boxes, like Tyrtaeos supporting red horsehair...I will not make any more arguments because I don't wish to repeat myself.

Also - crest holder to the right is not the imitation of the hair, but the holder for the hair to be attached. I don't think I am the one who doesn't read and just argues.

You probably mixed up my crest holder with this http://www.flickr.com/photos/i-deia/3621...otostream/ because you seem to be talking about this all the time.

@ Bill...I have. I said that compared to later types, like pylos - bu I am not one of those who criticize corinthians.I am in love with corinthians and absolutely hate later types.
As I said my general opinion is corinthians were replaced because of the economics not because of the evolution or some faults of corinthians.

Also I clearly said what are situations in which I think cersts were used. It goes well beyond ranking.

Guys..I gave the material evidence. Whatever logics we apply we can not beat it until some other written or material evidence appear.

Also..What about those horns. Did you ever see such horns in pottery,logics or written evidence,no. And yet it exists.