Greek Helmet Crests

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

OK,crests have been a popular theme to discuss,because none has been found intact, and relate to many different subjects,such as troop types,helmet types,generals,cites and other.Lets start a thread for everything "crested"

Continuing from another thread:
Paul,maybe the wrong thread,but lets bring again the crest issue in greek helmets.
The Italians were generally more wealthy than native Greeks,and this explains why there is so much frequency in crested helmets from Italy.
What about the corinthian helmets though?Some times they seem not to have any indication of crest holder,however there are indeed many times tiny holes,some times only one tiny hole just on the top of the helmet.Some times there are indications of crest only in the back and one major reason I think why we can't destinguish when a helmet had crest or not in the first glance,is that there seem to co-exist so many ways of attachment. It seems as if each craftsman had his own patent!
I may seem to push things a bit to far, but I'm just tired of atributing EVERY unexplained (yet) matter to artistic lisense.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Hmmm....
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=crests

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks Stefane,these links were necessary in the begining of this thread.
I have read or participated in all of them but there is still more to ask and discuss.For example,everyone,check your images of hoplites in vases.Over the crest box there is a line of dots, that seem to stand among the horse hair.It's very frequent and unexplainable to me.Some times the dots are very close to the crest box and one could say that they were standing on the top of it.In most cases,however,they're a good deal over the crest box.Be careful.I'm not talking about the dots ON the crest box.
Any ideas?
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Since this briefly summarises the situation with Classical Greek crests, it is perhaps worth repeating here as a basis of discussion........
The whole question of Greek helmet crests is a bit of a conundrum. Originally, on pottery crests were almost universal, but on actual finds there were seldom if ever any crest fittings found - so which was it? Crests or no crests?
The answer, as you might expect is more complex and there are still gaps. As re-enactors will tell you, you need to store an erect horsehair crest flat or otherwise it gradually goes floppy - so crests need to be detachable.
In Attic pottery, down to the times of the Persian Wars, only mythical subjects were shown, and although often dressed in contemporary equipment(Hopla ), the Gods and Heroes were invariably shown crested, including the archaic raised crest.
From the time of the Persian Wars on, Attic pottery started to depict'current events' and we see Athenian soldiers fighting Persians. Many of these are shown with no crests. At around this time too theSiphnian Treaury was erected and it was decorated with a relief of a battle between Gods and Giants, dressed as contemporary Hoplites, and again many are crest-less.
The present view is that from around the time of the Persian Wars, the vast majority of Hoplites would probably not have had crests, but since a panoply was an individual thing, the more expensive might have chosen to have crests, or as you mentioned, crests might have been the preserve of officers - certainly strategoi (generals) are described as wearing triple crests ( see other thread). There are IIRC at least two crests depicted as sideways on Corinthian helmets, one the statuette presumed to be a Spartan because of his long hair ( see Paul Bardunias' avatar on this site) and another on a pot painting ( I think). By analogy with Roman Centurions crests, it is guessed that these 'sideways' crests represent officers, but since the whole front rank of a phalanx were officers, special recognition was hardly needed and it is more likely that these are just personal whim.
This is only a short version of what is a complex subject ! :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

No one could disagree with this sum,Paul
Some other thoughts.Isn't it strange that EVERY single Illyrian helmet found has crest attachments?Not only the two parallel lines on the top,but also hooks and nails on the front and back to tie the crest box.Isn't it supposed that the corinthian helmet was more difficult to construct(some Illyrian were made from two pieces) and a more aristocratic piece of equipment?Aren't these two things contradictory?
Khaire
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

ok,this is what i was talking about dots.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Also:

And not to be confused with this.Here it is clear that the dots are part of the crest box

Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Isn't it strange that EVERY single Illyrian helmet found has crest attachments?Not only the two parallel lines on the top,but also hooks and nails on the front and back to tie the crest box.Isn't it supposed that the corinthian helmet was more difficult to construct(some Illyrian were made from two pieces) and a more aristocratic piece of equipment?Aren't these two things contradictory?

Yes, that is odd ! Illyrian helmets were originally made in two pieces and the ridges were to protect the joint. By the 6th century, they were made exactly like contemporary Corinthians, but retained the now redundant ridges, and even incised lines where the joint formerly was! Such is the power of conservatism and tradition - or perhaps, since they were almost all made for an export market ( judging by the finds), it had to 'look right'.
(for a more recent example, highland broadswords had to be stamped 'Ferrara' even when not made there). Illyrian helmets all seem to have (or had, but there are still traces of) crest fastenings consisting of a pin at the front and a loop/ring at the back.
Perhaps the explanation for them all being crested lies with this necessity to 'look right', or the fact that the Barbarian customers were tribal chiefs and the like who wanted a 'high status' expensive helmet with crest, or both !!

[Magnus]

Wierd...if the crests are indeed made of hair, then how do they get some kind of ornamentation that high up on the strands? Unless the crest box is higher than we thought and that is further decoration on it?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm wondering if there was a structure within the horse hair to keep them streight.But re-enactors don't have problems with their plumes.And I've not seen the dots in any sculpture,yet.
Khairete
Giannis

[JP Vieira]

Giannis
the within structure makes sense: but I guess their is no evidence for it (archaelogical or written)?
Best regards
JP Vieira

[hoplite14gr]

One of our members made knots with the horsehair ans put them tightlu packed in the wooden crest fillinf the gaps with wood-glue (balsa).
Is keeps hair very upright.
Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Illerian helmet in Athens museum has the 2 ridges along the side, plus , if I recall, the hook and ring attachment as well! I just assumed the ridges were there to stop the crest box falling to the side :?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think that was the function,too.Tge ridges exist in some corinthian helmets,too.In late corinthians,the top of the helmet was somewhat pointed and this kept the crest box in place.The edge of the crown went into the crest box.In Illyrian and earlier corinthian helmets this edge does not exist and the top of the crown is rounded,so the redges might have helped to stabilise the crest.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Byron said:

I just assumed the ridges were there to stop the crest box falling to the side

Giannis said

I think that was the function,too.

....sorry, guys, this is simply not correct. ) )