02-03-2012, 08:01 AM
I am not advocating the wide use of crests..So the 550 survivors with fits my point neatly.
Point being very small percent used crests.
Finding one of them certainly means they existed, not finding more again fits the point we both seem to have - they were just rare.
No it doesn't. Only 550 metal helmets of this type of perhaps 300,000 made? Only indicative that an extremely small number survived intact.
Now when we cleared that...
'' Of all the hundreds of years of the Corinthian helmets use....only 550 exist intact. No crests. What you are holding up as an example is either trophia, votive or was so unusual it was worth dedicating to a temple and thus it survived. ''
What about it makes you believe it was singular, votive, trophia, or unusual???
I don't see anything unusual about it other that it chalenges the organic material 'mantra' you support.
The fact that such ornate or large additions to the helmet would have added perhaps 2-4lbs on the helmet. Also unusual because no depiction of these types of exaggerated crests appears anywhere.
I give you real, material proof, a real piece of armor from 6th bc...and you counter me just with the theory that not finding any proof proves the existance of it (organic crest holders)?!
hock:
6th century is not 5th century. 5th century Phalanx battles with huge horns would be somewhat....inconvenient.
''Of the normal common crests depicted.....organic materials like wood and horsehair. ''
Would you explain to me how is exactly wood and organic material depicted in black style pottery for example, or in bronze or stone figurines?!?
Because wood is lightweight, easily carved, tapped and drilled.
'' Easy to obtain or replace when damaged and relatively cheap.' '
You can not know that it was of any importance back then.It is just modern logics projected into far far antiquity. Not a fact. Why is bronze irreparable and why do you think someone rich or important enough to carry crest had to worry about repair.After all wars were not waged every weekend, not even every year, and crest wasn't damaged in every conflict right.
Modern logistics? I believe the Greeks were just as capable of common sense as we are. Why wouldn't a 10 ounze crest box of wood be more advisable than gigantic bronze horns?
As to repairing bronze....I'm guessing you don't actually forge or work with it do you? Repairing crests would likely be needed after any engagement or when junior knocked it off the table or it fell. Repair is always a factor for a soldier concerning his equipment. It's about "if I have to fix this...."
By using modern logics such as that, Greek hoplites couldn't have used either heavy bronze armor, nor the sound/vision restricted corinthian helmet... yet they did...for centuries.
The helmets are not as restrictive nor as heavy as assumed. The need to protect the head most as it is always exposed precipitated the form and evolution of the helmet.
'' The fact that no armor or bronze is found there is more likely due to reuse than non existence. ''
Or the fact it was around two and a half millenia ago, and to the fact Sparta was always small town / collection of villages, that it was sacked at least a dozen times since then, that same pieces were used and left in many other battlefields long after their production was stopped, and to the fact it was reused...And no, I would not draw the organic armor conclusion because I only see evidence of bronze one, and no single evidence of organic. And I would call it most bronzed up, with the best panoplia quality/quantity because of the system which was not ''every man for himself'' like in the most of the Greece at the time.
Uhm you're not going to see evidence of organic anything. It's usually classed as biodegradable. Hence, nothing remains.
You should really differ fact from founded assumption, and both from pure speculation drawn from our personal logics, wishes etc...
Yeah I read things that why I can fill in the blanks.
For example Spartans had red crest hair? Why? As seen where? As said by who? Frank Miller?
Xenophon and Tyrtaeus
'' Thus a commander could see which unit or 'regiment' was where in his line. ''
Again this is an unfounded speculation with sources only in modern logics projected in the Archaic Greece. Chances are they never ever thought about it. No matter how logical it seems to us today.
-----
So encryption of military orders and dog tags are purely modern, NOT invented by the Spartans right? So no reason to believe that the ancient Greeks writing about the different Agoges and their names or fraternal nature is complete bullshit as a joke to us people who would read it later in modern times?
Point being very small percent used crests.
Finding one of them certainly means they existed, not finding more again fits the point we both seem to have - they were just rare.
No it doesn't. Only 550 metal helmets of this type of perhaps 300,000 made? Only indicative that an extremely small number survived intact.
Now when we cleared that...
'' Of all the hundreds of years of the Corinthian helmets use....only 550 exist intact. No crests. What you are holding up as an example is either trophia, votive or was so unusual it was worth dedicating to a temple and thus it survived. ''
What about it makes you believe it was singular, votive, trophia, or unusual???
I don't see anything unusual about it other that it chalenges the organic material 'mantra' you support.
The fact that such ornate or large additions to the helmet would have added perhaps 2-4lbs on the helmet. Also unusual because no depiction of these types of exaggerated crests appears anywhere.
I give you real, material proof, a real piece of armor from 6th bc...and you counter me just with the theory that not finding any proof proves the existance of it (organic crest holders)?!
hock: 6th century is not 5th century. 5th century Phalanx battles with huge horns would be somewhat....inconvenient.
''Of the normal common crests depicted.....organic materials like wood and horsehair. ''
Would you explain to me how is exactly wood and organic material depicted in black style pottery for example, or in bronze or stone figurines?!?
Because wood is lightweight, easily carved, tapped and drilled.
'' Easy to obtain or replace when damaged and relatively cheap.' '
You can not know that it was of any importance back then.It is just modern logics projected into far far antiquity. Not a fact. Why is bronze irreparable and why do you think someone rich or important enough to carry crest had to worry about repair.After all wars were not waged every weekend, not even every year, and crest wasn't damaged in every conflict right.
Modern logistics? I believe the Greeks were just as capable of common sense as we are. Why wouldn't a 10 ounze crest box of wood be more advisable than gigantic bronze horns?
As to repairing bronze....I'm guessing you don't actually forge or work with it do you? Repairing crests would likely be needed after any engagement or when junior knocked it off the table or it fell. Repair is always a factor for a soldier concerning his equipment. It's about "if I have to fix this...."
By using modern logics such as that, Greek hoplites couldn't have used either heavy bronze armor, nor the sound/vision restricted corinthian helmet... yet they did...for centuries.
The helmets are not as restrictive nor as heavy as assumed. The need to protect the head most as it is always exposed precipitated the form and evolution of the helmet.
'' The fact that no armor or bronze is found there is more likely due to reuse than non existence. ''
Or the fact it was around two and a half millenia ago, and to the fact Sparta was always small town / collection of villages, that it was sacked at least a dozen times since then, that same pieces were used and left in many other battlefields long after their production was stopped, and to the fact it was reused...And no, I would not draw the organic armor conclusion because I only see evidence of bronze one, and no single evidence of organic. And I would call it most bronzed up, with the best panoplia quality/quantity because of the system which was not ''every man for himself'' like in the most of the Greece at the time.
Uhm you're not going to see evidence of organic anything. It's usually classed as biodegradable. Hence, nothing remains.
You should really differ fact from founded assumption, and both from pure speculation drawn from our personal logics, wishes etc...
Yeah I read things that why I can fill in the blanks.
For example Spartans had red crest hair? Why? As seen where? As said by who? Frank Miller?
Xenophon and Tyrtaeus
'' Thus a commander could see which unit or 'regiment' was where in his line. ''
Again this is an unfounded speculation with sources only in modern logics projected in the Archaic Greece. Chances are they never ever thought about it. No matter how logical it seems to us today.
-----
So encryption of military orders and dog tags are purely modern, NOT invented by the Spartans right? So no reason to believe that the ancient Greeks writing about the different Agoges and their names or fraternal nature is complete bullshit as a joke to us people who would read it later in modern times?
