Poor Louise has had her ear bent on this subject more than enough :wink: , but when she VERY kindly let me see this piece and the scales in situ with bronze disks (which seem to have disappeared?) my first thought was chamfron... I am CONVINCED this is a chamfron of unusual composition, not yet seen in Roman context.
This photograph was taken from an already published piece (cannot remember where...perhaps the very first discussion about the finds in Caerleon here on RAT) and is not one of my private photographs so I hope I am not treading on any toes by putting it here. If I am, my apologies (and Moderators, please remove!)
To me this piece with the face is shaped to go around the horse's ear; the upper copper disk is where the browband would be connected to the cheek piece of the horse's bridle and the lower piece where the cheekpiece would connect to the noseband.
Fanciful? I hope not!!
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Quote:Poor Louise has had her ear bent on this subject more than enough :wink: , but when she VERY kindly let me see this piece and the scales in situ with bronze disks (which seem to have disappeared?) my first thought was chamfron... I am CONVINCED this is a chamfron of unusual composition, not yet seen in Roman context.
Jurjen.
That small Bacchic head on a Vine leaf does indeed look like one of the fittings from the Vindolanda Leather Chamfron, and I would suggest they were also fitted to the Trimontium Chamfrom.
I am surprised that the leaf and the head are still together for on the Vindolanda and the Trimontium chamfrons they are separate items, they were held onto the leather of the chamfron with bellcaps, 3 pins on the leaf and a pin at the back of the head that went through the leaf and chamfron leather.
Vindex, I tend to agree with that idea over armour.
Much like you thought previously.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
because sadly now it is being excavated from the block the "obvious" chamfron seems to be disappearing :roll:
I'm getting over excited...need to go and lie down.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Penny has been laboriously recording then lifting the groups of little studs, as whatever it is isn't laid flat; there are little layers, sort of concertina'd on themselves. Recording is an obsession with conservators, and Pen is particularly expert at drawing. Her drawings and photographs will record perfectly where everything originally lay, so that she can reconstruct how the whole thing went together once it is all removed from the soil. It does look very incomplete, though.
I know you've seen the little head before and discussed it, but Pen is composing the blog from the beginning in the order she tackled it. I think the photos of it are more detailed though, aren't they?
Quote:Penny has been laboriously recording then lifting the groups of little studs, as whatever it is isn't laid flat; there are little layers, sort of concertina'd on themselves. Recording is an obsession with conservators, and Pen is particularly expert at drawing. Her drawings and photographs will record perfectly where everything originally lay, so that she can reconstruct how the whole thing went together once it is all removed from the soil.
*Sigh* if only she'd been around to do the Corbridge Hoard! ;-) All we had surviving to work from were a few sketches on paper and a dozen or so photos taken at the time. Contrast that with the Carlisle Millennium armour, where I was supplied with CD-loads of digital photos of every stage of 'unpacking' by the conservator (Jenny Jones).
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Moi.
I was wondering if there is any chance of a picture showing the reverse of that small head and vine leaf, for it would be of great interest to see just how the two items are still or have been put together reference my earlier mention of how these pieces of decoration were used.
These kind of pictures are alright but to one who re-produces Roman equipment it helps an awful lot to see the back of things or even the inside of helmets and such.
In fact also a more fine detail of the face would also be good for the reference to Phygian Cap may well be one but better detail would prove it a bit more.
I'd love to help you out but I only got to see the armour through the VERY kind offices of Louise as a special favour.
When I saw it the small head fragment was already lifted from the soil block and laid in a small protective, plastic box - and yes, Louise the photographs are more detailed than the earlier ones - but if Penny has conserved it then I imagine she has photographed it from every conceivable angle and possibly used the whizzo fantastic x-ray software they have at Cardiff Museum which really is state of the art and should, hopefully, show how the head has been attached to the copper alloy. :wink: I know that one of the bent over "pins" as we can see in the small scale is attached to the lower end of the head fragment. Sorry, that's about as much as I can say!
Edited to add: If you look at photographs one and two on the blog you can see what is potentially the end of a pin bent over in the upper most part of the plaque, top left as it were. My photo shows one on the bottom right, so this would match the picture of the roves, which is the last photo on the blog. (Think that makes sense...)
Louise: I should have known that the lifting of the layers would have been meticulously recorded so I apologise for any implied criticism from my comment. What I should have said, really, is that the copper alloy disks weren't mentioned in the context of the blog on the small head fragment and I think these pieces are key to understanding what this fascinating artefact is! But then I SO want this to be a chamfron I tend to get blinded by that from the other possibilities which are as yet unexplored. :oops:
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
May I ask if a nice, kind Moderator would very kindly split the chamfron discussion out of this thread as it is titled Lorica Segmentata? Although it is a continuation blog from Caardiff Museum we're on a different subject now.
There's already a thread called A New Type of Armour - perhaps it could be tacked onto that?
Thank you in advance.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Thank you for your reply and I do understand what you mean about getting at these things, my reason for wanting to see a rear view is for what I mentioned about how these type of small faces were fitted to leather chamfrons including the leaves.
I have had a good look at the original Vindolanda and the Trimontium leather ones, that was when I reproduced them for the Vindolanda Trust and the Trimontium Trust (Melrose/Newstead Museum)
Those Vine leaves and small faces were indeed separate items where the leaf had three pins that held it to the leather, then the face had one pin that went through the leaf and the leather. All pins were held by bellcaps however the leaf pins and their bellcaps were under the backing leather of the chamfron, and it looked like the small head pin also held the backing leather along with its stitching around the edge of the chamfron.
There is the same theme on both these chamfrons where along the brow area there are spears, however in between each spear there is the upper half of a round shield that had a 17mm stud through the centre which represents an umbro of a shield.
The semi-circular plate of each shield is held by only two pins and the 17mm stud pin again held the backing leather of the chamfron.
Penny has posted a picture of the reverse of the plaque on the blog now...near the bottom of the page.
THANK YOU LOUISE!!!! (and Penny!)
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
