Re: Lorica segmentata from Caerleon

[Caballo]

Many thanks to Cunicula for posting, and great to meet you today in Cardiff. And what a privilege to see the artifacts themselves.

Some notes from today. Any mistakes are entirely down to me!

Firstly a lovely metal piece , bronze, has been found with a stencilled Capricorn ( the Legio II Augusta motif) in a border.solder marks on the edges. I haven't seen a picture of this before.

The iron work was found towards the very end of the dig...and includes girth hoops, shoulder plates, single plates, scale, and the very odd circular scale- the size of a small drawing pin.

Couple of comments made on reenactors-
- hinges in modern replicas are far too thick. The originals are very, very thin.
- shoulder padding needs to be worn to get the shoulder sections to hang right, as well as to ensure that the chest plates do not overlap. Mike Bishop has also made this point, and I very much agree.

Much of the iron plates have mineralised, so x rays are the only way of examining them in detail. More pictures will be taken. At this stage, it is unlikely that the plates will ever be able to be displayed outside the earth blocks.

One iron plate was found with an enamelled belt buckle and a coin from Carausius datied 292 AD....more below.

The girth hoop was found with a tie ring; one plate has a rolled edge.

One of the single plates also has a rolled edge- perhaps a chest plate?

Much of the copper fittings had been stripped off.

Scattered individual scales in copper alloy were found.

I also examined the small head on a bronze backing shown in the photographs in the blog. The head has a Phrygian cap, a fringe of curly hair, and is slightly cross eyed! The length of the rivets indicate that this was peened over a thick piece of leather-perhaps horse harness decoration. Byron asked if it was a breastplate with neck cutout. It's smaller than I expected from the photographs, and is too small for this, unfortunately.

The small circular copper alloy pieces were found in a Squamata like overlapping arrangement and are c.5 mm in diameter. On the back are single rods, again about 5 mm, that have been clenched- no sign of a rove or peening. On the back of some of these are crossed diagonals. These are odd. Individually clenched scales would be very flexible, but how practical would the protection be? Perhaps a manica? Perhaps an edging or filling vulnerable gaps in the armour?? I confess I am puzzled.

One theory for the plate armour is as follows.

1. Segmentata goes out of use in early 3rd century.
2. Plate armour stored and copper alloy partially stripped.
3. Around 300 AD, Caerleon goes out of use. Legion clears out stores, and leave plate on a shelf or loft above floor. Coin of Carausius dropped.
4. Building collapse, and armour scattered on floor of derelict building.

I'm not convinced that the coin does not indicate a late 3rd century date for the lorica segmentata in UK.

Finally, unpublished work indicates that along the road were small booths , some of which were repairing armour and kit. We could do with them at events!

A great day- thanks to all at the National Museum of Wales in Cardiff!

[Vindex]

Thanks for the feedback! Still annoyed to have missed this and excavating Paleolithic flint with no less a person than Phil Harding does NOT make up for it (not that he was at all sympathetic!! :roll: :wink: ).

[Caballo]

Chatting with Peronis today, we came to the conclusion that the most likely solution to the circular scales is a version of the Alba Iulia lorica.


If the circular scales were part of a larger jacket to make an overall squamata , more of the copper alloy scales would be likely to have been found?

The scales were found in conjunction to plate armour though of course they may be completely unrelated.

So the hypothesis is that the circular scales were used wrapped around the neck over a woolen scarf for padding, and possibly extending over the lorica as per above. Thoughts?

[Vindex]

VERY interesting thought...however, having seen the very small, circular scales I am still not convinced that they would be robust enough to provide much protection against a blow.

They could, conceivably, be an attempt to armour a gap in the LS around the neck as you suggest (or perhaps even under the arm?) or they could have been from a more decorative piece (bearing in mind that the small cross-eyed geezer in the Phrygian cap was found in the context of the small scales and not the LS).

It's certainly intriguing, and unique I think?

[Caballo]

It's certainly intriguing, and unique I think?

Absolutely!

I'm not sure that we are underestimating the potential strength of the small circular scales (about 5mm diameter, I estimate by eye- to be confirmed), when overlapped and backed by thick leather.

As they used to say on children's tv, here's one you can try at home. A bit on the Blue Peter school of reconstruction, but I took a length of cow leather this afternoon, and pierced it with brass drawing pins overlapping as per the find. It is remarkably strong and resistant to blows.

Now, the drawing pins with a 10 mm diameter head are about twice the size of the finds- but I'm not sure we can make the assumption that the smaller scales would have been that poor in protection. And if they are covering a gap, they are better then nothing.

And if anyone can find 5mm diameter brass drawing pins to make a better reconstruction, please could you contact me?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Excuse the very crude sketch, but I am thinking more along these lines.
The chest plates could even be the decorated ones often described as going with
ringmail or squamata?

[Vindex]

It's certainly intriguing, and unique I think?

Absolutely!

I'm not sure that we are underestimating the potential strength of the small circular scales (about 5mm diameter, I estimate by eye- to be confirmed), when overlapped and backed by thick leather.

As they used to say on children's tv, here's one you can try at home. A bit on the Blue Peter school of reconstruction, but I took a length of cow leather this afternoon, and pierced it with brass drawing pins overlapping as per the find. It is remarkably strong and resistant to blows.

Now, the drawing pins with a 10 mm diameter head are about twice the size of the finds- but I'm not sure we can make the assumption that the smaller scales would have been that poor in protection. And if they are covering a gap, they are better then nothing.

And if anyone can find 5mm diameter brass drawing pins to make a better reconstruction, please could you contact me?

Best I found was 6mm?

http://www.gloverbros.co.uk/Chair%20comp...sterynails

Having said that, I thought the round scale was larger than that at about 10mm? If the nail head in my picture is a standard 6" nail, that makes the scales 10mm too.

[Cunicula]

With perfect timing for this discussion, Penny has taken over the blog from Julia to describe her work on the bronze scale and associated fragments
http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/blog/201...m-Caerleon

Scrolling back a couple of weeks (haven't checked in here for a while) it was great to meet you too, Paul, (I say 'meet' despite our apparently having attended at least two events together!) and a pleasure to take you to visit the lab. I think Penny's blog will answer the question in your PM - sorry, hadn't seen that either!

[Medicus matt]

Nice to see some close up pics of the little pins.
She asks if there's any idea as to how they were made....anything to indicate something other than the obvious (ie that they were cast)?

[Caballo]

And the diagonals used to place the spike in the centre of the roundel? Thanks for posting- as ever, I have more questions than answers...I also now have some very small upholstery pins to experiment with!!

[Vindex]

Even more intrigue - I LOVE it!

Did the Roman's have soldering technology or just casting. From the pictures (which I can't enlarge BTW ) they seem to be one piece of metal.

The thickness of the leather backing in relation to the fineness of the armour is fascinating...

[Medicus matt]

And the diagonals used to place the spike in the centre of the roundel?

Are they though, or are they just part of the casting? If the backing was leather then those diagonals would bite into it when clenching the pin and would stop the discs from rotating.

Vindex, lead-tin soldering was known (but expensive). Pliny the Elder talks about it and how it could be used for joining metal pipes. He said it cost 20 denarii per pound.
Even so, it's a soft joint, not something you'd want to use on something that was going to be subject to lots of wear from movement.

Making a two part mould to cast dozens of this little chaps at a time wouldn't be hard at all.

[Medicus matt]

I also now have some very small upholstery pins to experiment with!!

In which case you're probably going to end up with lots of little round heads and lots of seperate bent pins.

[Cunicula]

Another post on the bronze scale fragments from Penny, who sneaked it in on Friday when I wasn't watching.
Meet the mischievous little character in the Phrygian cap..

[jvrjenivs]

Just spotted this discussion again and took another look at the finds. I found the unusually shaped bronze sheet decorated with a stud depicting a human head" most interesting as it seems to me a very nice variation on the decorations from horse chamfrons Have to keep a look at them. Very interesting.
(e.g. the Vindolanda leather chamfron)