11-24-2011, 10:59 AM
Mr Campbell wrote: So we are naturally wary when he writes that "a legion is six thousand armed men, so called from the word electo [ "selected" ], as though they were chosen, that is chosen to bear arms. ... The legion has sixty centuries, thirty maniples, twelve cohorts, two-hundred squadrons." Is this a rare gem amongst Isidore's other nonsense? (He elsewhere claims that there are 6,600 men in a legion.)
You ask if Isidore’s description of the legion’s organisation is “a rare gem amongst Isidore's other nonsense.” My answer is yes. Isidore’s legion of 6600 men is not an isolated figure. One of the references to the Theban legion also numbers 6600 men. Roth in his paper on the size of the Imperial legion quotes a fragment of Suetonius claiming a legion numbered 5600 men. The common denominator is all of these examples is the number 600. There is a pattern in play which needs further investigation rather than rejection on the grounds it does not conform to modern opinions of the Roman legion.
I’ve already in this posting shown that Isidore’s claim of a 6000 man legion numbering 12 cohorts of 500 men is correct. All legions have more than one organisation. Isidore’s statement a legion numbered 60 centuries and 30 maniples is quite feasible. Isidore also adds that a maniple numbered 200 men. Therefore, 6000 men equates to 30 maniples at 200 men, with a maniple consisting of two centuries of 100 men. Now, to back this up, I’m sorry but I have to use the zodiac. In the 4800 man legion, which would equate to 30 maniples at 160 men (two 80 man centuries) I showed that a tribe consisting of 9600 men (4800 iuniores and 4800 seniores). In its basic form, a 6000 man legion is organised into 10 cohorts of 600 men. A 600 man cohort multiplied by 700 stadia per degree produces 420,000 stadia. The figure of 420,000 stadia is converted to 420,000 men then divided by the 35 tribes. Therefore each tribe numbers 12,000 men, which is divided into 6000 iuniores and 6000 seniores. So in regard to the iuniores, we have an increase of 1200 men since the legion of 4800 men. The additional 1200 men when divided by 30 maniples, each maniple will increase by 40 men and each century by 20 men. Therefore, the 160 man maniple in the 4800 legion will increase to 200 men per maniple in the 6000 man legion. A figure of 200 men per maniple is stipulated by Isidore. And let’s not forget Ammianus has the army forming up in cohorts, maniples and centuries.
The next issue is to explain why a legion is given at 6600 men. The answer to this is explained by Vegetius who states the cavalry is on the same roll of the legions - 6600 men divided by 60 centuries produces a century of 110 men. The additional 10 men are the cavalry, which number 600 men. Now I have already mentioned that the number of squadrons in the cavalry is equivalent to the number of zodiacs. So a 600 man cohort equates to 20 zodiacs (600 degrees divided by 30 degrees per zodiac). Therefore, the 600 men is organised into 20 squadrons at 30 men a squadron. Isidore’s number of 200 squadrons is a copyist mistake for 20 squadrons. In conclusion, Isidore’s 6000 man legion represents the infantry and Isidore’s 6600 men includes the cavalry, as does the Theban legion of 6600 men.
Ok, so how does Isidore stand up to scrutiny? Isidore claims a century numbered 100 men, a maniple 200 men and a cavalry squadron 30 men. Does this look like someone who as one poster claims has “to extract these figures from various sources and to divide them into his 6000-strong legion to produce the numbers in Etymol.”
Sean Manning wrote: Since you haven't answered my questions, I won't ask them again. I don't feed trolls.
How dare you accuse me of trolling! I have answered your question to the best of my ability. Here it is again. The Roman cosmos system has nothing to do with the circumference of the earth. Because you don’t like the answer, this does not give you the right to resort to sarcasm.
Macedon wrote: As I understand thus far, you suggest that the way the Romans perceived the cosmos, where by cosmos you mean the heavenly bodies and their relation to earth and each other, governed the numbers and sizes of many administrative issues like the number of tribes, their population (which would have been controlled so that it would correspond to these numbers), as well as their military organization regarding the structure of their legions, the sizes of the legions' subdivisions in every branch of the army, maybe even the number of levied legions? And this would have been the case from 500 BC to 200 AD with every change obeying to these heavenly mathematical relations in order to be accepted. Have I understood it correctly thus far?
Ok, now I understand your question. I’ll give a summary rather than itemise your question as this way I can explained it better. The number of tribes is governed by another mathematical principal explained in the primary sources (ancient mathematical sources). The size and organisation of a tribe is governed by the orbit of the zodiac. The number of stadia travelled by the zodiac determines the number of men in the tribes. The orbit of the zodiac takes centuries to complete and this is why Virgil refers to it as the roll call of the centuries. When the tribes are bought into line with the zodiac, which occurs at a specific time frame (centuries) the tribes are increased and because of the increase the legion will also increase due to the legion mirroring the organisation of the tribes.
Macedon wrote: And this would have been the case from 500 BC to 200 AD with every change obeying to these heavenly mathematical relations in order to be accepted.
That is correct but the reference to 500 BC is rounded for aesthetics. However, between these intervals of change, the Romans can and have changed the internal organisation of the legion. The size of the legion remains the same but the horizontal and vertical organisation can be modified which will produce units of differing sizes from those that had gone before. My question regarding the Late Roman legion consisting of six units of 1200 men was because the data regarding the cosmos system indicates this is wrong as the system should cease after a period of 1200 years, and six units of 1200 men is going beyond that time frame. The reason for 1200 years is the Romans had a prophecy that if they survived their first 120 years, the gods would protect them for 1200 years. The 1200 years is based on 100 years for each of the 12 vultures Romulus sighted when he founded Rome. I have no idea when this prophecy was introduced, but Livy writes that after the sack of Rome the first thing the newly elected consular tribunes did was conducted a religious investigation. The investigation showed that one of the consular tribunes at the Allia did not conduct proper religious services before the battle. I believe this consular tribune was made a scapegoat in order to maintain belief in the prophecy. By compiling the size of the various units for the Late Roman army and because Ammianus states the army still formed up into cohorts, maniples and centuries, I have my evidence the system is only designed for 1200 years. In that 1200 year period there is one forced change to the Roman cosmos system. This has to do with the science of the times, especially in regard to the position of the sun. The result of this is the Romans recalculate and the adjust their cosmos which alters the tribes, which results in the maniple legion. The maniple legion signifies the old from the new.
You ask if Isidore’s description of the legion’s organisation is “a rare gem amongst Isidore's other nonsense.” My answer is yes. Isidore’s legion of 6600 men is not an isolated figure. One of the references to the Theban legion also numbers 6600 men. Roth in his paper on the size of the Imperial legion quotes a fragment of Suetonius claiming a legion numbered 5600 men. The common denominator is all of these examples is the number 600. There is a pattern in play which needs further investigation rather than rejection on the grounds it does not conform to modern opinions of the Roman legion.
I’ve already in this posting shown that Isidore’s claim of a 6000 man legion numbering 12 cohorts of 500 men is correct. All legions have more than one organisation. Isidore’s statement a legion numbered 60 centuries and 30 maniples is quite feasible. Isidore also adds that a maniple numbered 200 men. Therefore, 6000 men equates to 30 maniples at 200 men, with a maniple consisting of two centuries of 100 men. Now, to back this up, I’m sorry but I have to use the zodiac. In the 4800 man legion, which would equate to 30 maniples at 160 men (two 80 man centuries) I showed that a tribe consisting of 9600 men (4800 iuniores and 4800 seniores). In its basic form, a 6000 man legion is organised into 10 cohorts of 600 men. A 600 man cohort multiplied by 700 stadia per degree produces 420,000 stadia. The figure of 420,000 stadia is converted to 420,000 men then divided by the 35 tribes. Therefore each tribe numbers 12,000 men, which is divided into 6000 iuniores and 6000 seniores. So in regard to the iuniores, we have an increase of 1200 men since the legion of 4800 men. The additional 1200 men when divided by 30 maniples, each maniple will increase by 40 men and each century by 20 men. Therefore, the 160 man maniple in the 4800 legion will increase to 200 men per maniple in the 6000 man legion. A figure of 200 men per maniple is stipulated by Isidore. And let’s not forget Ammianus has the army forming up in cohorts, maniples and centuries.
The next issue is to explain why a legion is given at 6600 men. The answer to this is explained by Vegetius who states the cavalry is on the same roll of the legions - 6600 men divided by 60 centuries produces a century of 110 men. The additional 10 men are the cavalry, which number 600 men. Now I have already mentioned that the number of squadrons in the cavalry is equivalent to the number of zodiacs. So a 600 man cohort equates to 20 zodiacs (600 degrees divided by 30 degrees per zodiac). Therefore, the 600 men is organised into 20 squadrons at 30 men a squadron. Isidore’s number of 200 squadrons is a copyist mistake for 20 squadrons. In conclusion, Isidore’s 6000 man legion represents the infantry and Isidore’s 6600 men includes the cavalry, as does the Theban legion of 6600 men.
Ok, so how does Isidore stand up to scrutiny? Isidore claims a century numbered 100 men, a maniple 200 men and a cavalry squadron 30 men. Does this look like someone who as one poster claims has “to extract these figures from various sources and to divide them into his 6000-strong legion to produce the numbers in Etymol.”
Sean Manning wrote: Since you haven't answered my questions, I won't ask them again. I don't feed trolls.
How dare you accuse me of trolling! I have answered your question to the best of my ability. Here it is again. The Roman cosmos system has nothing to do with the circumference of the earth. Because you don’t like the answer, this does not give you the right to resort to sarcasm.
Macedon wrote: As I understand thus far, you suggest that the way the Romans perceived the cosmos, where by cosmos you mean the heavenly bodies and their relation to earth and each other, governed the numbers and sizes of many administrative issues like the number of tribes, their population (which would have been controlled so that it would correspond to these numbers), as well as their military organization regarding the structure of their legions, the sizes of the legions' subdivisions in every branch of the army, maybe even the number of levied legions? And this would have been the case from 500 BC to 200 AD with every change obeying to these heavenly mathematical relations in order to be accepted. Have I understood it correctly thus far?
Ok, now I understand your question. I’ll give a summary rather than itemise your question as this way I can explained it better. The number of tribes is governed by another mathematical principal explained in the primary sources (ancient mathematical sources). The size and organisation of a tribe is governed by the orbit of the zodiac. The number of stadia travelled by the zodiac determines the number of men in the tribes. The orbit of the zodiac takes centuries to complete and this is why Virgil refers to it as the roll call of the centuries. When the tribes are bought into line with the zodiac, which occurs at a specific time frame (centuries) the tribes are increased and because of the increase the legion will also increase due to the legion mirroring the organisation of the tribes.
Macedon wrote: And this would have been the case from 500 BC to 200 AD with every change obeying to these heavenly mathematical relations in order to be accepted.
That is correct but the reference to 500 BC is rounded for aesthetics. However, between these intervals of change, the Romans can and have changed the internal organisation of the legion. The size of the legion remains the same but the horizontal and vertical organisation can be modified which will produce units of differing sizes from those that had gone before. My question regarding the Late Roman legion consisting of six units of 1200 men was because the data regarding the cosmos system indicates this is wrong as the system should cease after a period of 1200 years, and six units of 1200 men is going beyond that time frame. The reason for 1200 years is the Romans had a prophecy that if they survived their first 120 years, the gods would protect them for 1200 years. The 1200 years is based on 100 years for each of the 12 vultures Romulus sighted when he founded Rome. I have no idea when this prophecy was introduced, but Livy writes that after the sack of Rome the first thing the newly elected consular tribunes did was conducted a religious investigation. The investigation showed that one of the consular tribunes at the Allia did not conduct proper religious services before the battle. I believe this consular tribune was made a scapegoat in order to maintain belief in the prophecy. By compiling the size of the various units for the Late Roman army and because Ammianus states the army still formed up into cohorts, maniples and centuries, I have my evidence the system is only designed for 1200 years. In that 1200 year period there is one forced change to the Roman cosmos system. This has to do with the science of the times, especially in regard to the position of the sun. The result of this is the Romans recalculate and the adjust their cosmos which alters the tribes, which results in the maniple legion. The maniple legion signifies the old from the new.
