06-29-2017, 04:40 PM
Nathan wrote:
Why would the slabs be discussing different units?
I cannot answer that, but Slab C is so far removed from being a legion. Just look at the number of cornicines....8 for one legion, hardly, but it fits my organisation of a numerus.
Nathan wrote:
As Slab B says (Praeceptum Magistri Militum, 30-31): military legions should be under statute disposition... in accordance with the brevia arranged below (i.e on Slab C)
Many of those listed in Slab C are outside the legion’s organisation. And how did the Augustales and Fl.........and this is the moment when stopped writing because I had a sudden eureka moment. Now 2 hours later, I believe I have a good case as to the identity of the Augustales and Flaviales. The Augustales and Flaviales in the Perge document work by dividing them by 10.
20 Group 1 Augustales 2 men
30 Group 2 Augustales 3 men
70 Group 3 Augustales 7 men
60 Group 1 Flaviales 6 men
140 Group 2 Flaviales 14 men
Total 32 men
The 3 tier grouping of the Augustales is similar to the decuriones, the duplicarii and the sesquiplicarii of the principate. As a side note, Page 158 of the Perge paper: “Augustales are presented in three groups, the first group is 20 men and each received 6 annonae, the second is 30 men and each received 5 annonae.”
Then we find in the des rubus bellicis: Methods of Economy in Military Expenditure 5 2 “A member of the forces, after completing some years service and attaining to a rate of 5 annonae or more, should be granted an honourable discharge and go into retirement to enjoy his leisure, so that he may not burden the State by receiving these annonae any longer.”
Looks like it’s time to retire two of the three groups of Augustales.
Nathan wrote:
I asked about this above as I didn't understand what it meant - I still don't! I suspect what Onur means is that each of the ten signiferi were allocated to one of the ten centuries. Do you understand it differently?
No, like you I am perplexed. Does the Perge slabs actually state this, or is it Onur’s conclusion?
Nathan wrote:
They do appear in the principiate, and occasionally they are tribunes. However, after the middle of the third century all known praepositii are of centurion grade*.
It could be that the old centurion rankings of primi ordines, superiores ordines, inferiores ordines, and infimi ordines have been given new names.
Nathan wrote:
I think the length and complexity of discussion in this thread so far suggests that nobody is dismissing possibilities. But we have to work with the information we possess, rather than trying to mould it to fit our preconceived ideas.
I would like to make it clear that I am not trying to mould the data to fit my preconceived ideas. In the last hour, because of a little eureka moment with the Augustales and Flaviales, I have changed the size of what I believed the cavalry numerus to be. I let the primary sources guide me, always have and always will.
Why would the slabs be discussing different units?
I cannot answer that, but Slab C is so far removed from being a legion. Just look at the number of cornicines....8 for one legion, hardly, but it fits my organisation of a numerus.
Nathan wrote:
As Slab B says (Praeceptum Magistri Militum, 30-31): military legions should be under statute disposition... in accordance with the brevia arranged below (i.e on Slab C)
Many of those listed in Slab C are outside the legion’s organisation. And how did the Augustales and Fl.........and this is the moment when stopped writing because I had a sudden eureka moment. Now 2 hours later, I believe I have a good case as to the identity of the Augustales and Flaviales. The Augustales and Flaviales in the Perge document work by dividing them by 10.
20 Group 1 Augustales 2 men
30 Group 2 Augustales 3 men
70 Group 3 Augustales 7 men
60 Group 1 Flaviales 6 men
140 Group 2 Flaviales 14 men
Total 32 men
The 3 tier grouping of the Augustales is similar to the decuriones, the duplicarii and the sesquiplicarii of the principate. As a side note, Page 158 of the Perge paper: “Augustales are presented in three groups, the first group is 20 men and each received 6 annonae, the second is 30 men and each received 5 annonae.”
Then we find in the des rubus bellicis: Methods of Economy in Military Expenditure 5 2 “A member of the forces, after completing some years service and attaining to a rate of 5 annonae or more, should be granted an honourable discharge and go into retirement to enjoy his leisure, so that he may not burden the State by receiving these annonae any longer.”
Looks like it’s time to retire two of the three groups of Augustales.
Nathan wrote:
I asked about this above as I didn't understand what it meant - I still don't! I suspect what Onur means is that each of the ten signiferi were allocated to one of the ten centuries. Do you understand it differently?
No, like you I am perplexed. Does the Perge slabs actually state this, or is it Onur’s conclusion?
Nathan wrote:
They do appear in the principiate, and occasionally they are tribunes. However, after the middle of the third century all known praepositii are of centurion grade*.
It could be that the old centurion rankings of primi ordines, superiores ordines, inferiores ordines, and infimi ordines have been given new names.
Nathan wrote:
I think the length and complexity of discussion in this thread so far suggests that nobody is dismissing possibilities. But we have to work with the information we possess, rather than trying to mould it to fit our preconceived ideas.
I would like to make it clear that I am not trying to mould the data to fit my preconceived ideas. In the last hour, because of a little eureka moment with the Augustales and Flaviales, I have changed the size of what I believed the cavalry numerus to be. I let the primary sources guide me, always have and always will.
