Sarmatian origins of the spatha?

[diegis]

Razvan,

In terms of construction and time periods, I think there is less to speak for the Naue II as an ancestor of the spatha than for either the La Tene or Sarmatian long swords, as all except the Naue II use through-tang construction, and are closer in time.

Now I'm going on secondhand data here, but I've read that the slab-tanged Hallstatt swords which might have derived from the Naue II disappeared late in the period, and only the through-tanged dagger survived. This dagger is supposed to be the ancestor of the La Tene long sword, and clearly is ancestral to the La Tene anthropomorphic dagger. I think the Hallstatt dagger's most likely ancestor in turn is the Urnfield antennae sword, which shared its hilt construction and aspects of hilt and blade shape.

The Sarmatian sword I'd suppose evolved from the akinakes, which I believe was also a through-tang sword (though its hilt is more usually solid metal).

Hi Dan

Well, i believe that as shape and dimension of blade, Naue II can be considered the ancestor or grandmother of most of following long right swords.
However, as you say, and as its possible that Sarmatian long sword to be an evolution from akinakes, spatha can be as well a simple evolution of gladius (and falx an evolution of sica, and so on).
Its the most simple and logical step i think.

[diegis]

One thought - Spartacus was supposedly a Thracian auxiliary of some sort before 70BC. Might steppe influence have passed indirectly via the Thracians, who did indeed contribute to early Roman cavalry formations, and possibly development? {edit: cross-posted with Razvan here!}

Hi Nathan

This is another posibility, Thucidides said in his Peloponnesian Wars, Book II - that "[Getae] border on the Scythians and are armed in the same manner, being all mounted archers"

Getae/Dacians are the northern branch of Thracians, they was obviously closely related and conected with southern Thracians (as those too Spartacus belong too)
Thracian cavalry was employed as auxiliars and they can influence the weaponry of this troops in Roman Army.
The use of "draco" flag was as well introduced in Roman cavalry after Dacian wars of Trajan, and after employing of Dacian auxiliares in Roman army

But i believe the most logical origin of spatha is from gladius, spatha being just a longer and little more refined version of the shorter gladius

[Joze Noriker]

Maybe will help this:
when i started to make reco of my grave nr. 169 from Beletov vrt, Novo mesto, early Lt D1 (ab. 100 BC) i didn't know many information with comparative items. I must drow the plans for all reco-items and the knive is evidented in 3 fragments. Now i know them many:
the same knive and the same sword i found by the Dacians/Romania Link here: http://arheologie.ulbsibiu.ro/publicatii...dacian.htm
but here in Slovenia we know, that this form of the swords were used by the Scordiscians, too. I know items form Serbia, too.
But simmilar swords (simmilar scabard) with the same blade i know from Germany: from Manching and from Kelheim (museum in Regensburg). I have Fotos of all of them - also of the Scordiscian's sword, too. In my grave is the sword evidented in many fragments and i needed to have some paraleles for making my reco. In Germany this swords are calling "Mindelheim" swords - but some others from Saarland are calling "gallic" swords because of their origin from Gallia and they are dating of the gallic war (Lt D2). Frank Mathieu has this sword.
Than i call on our archaeol. institute SAZU the Dr. D. Bozic and i was asking him, if he knows the paraleles of this sword of the same time - early Lt D1 in Slovenia. He answered me: yes, in the basament-magazine of our NMS Museum in Ljubljana we have two itmes from cemetery Mokronog - this is new evidence of that swords with this blade. They are dating in the early Lt D1 ab. 110 - 100 BC (my theory). Than i saw the great exhibition of the Ljubljanica river in the NMS Museum with another swords - and i saw the new variante of the scabard(s) - the new transformating form of them but the swords have still the same blade. The little details are different. They are younger - dating in Lt D2. They are interesting because again my theory: from this form of the scabards goes evolution to the later Lt D2 scabards's (and swords's) form and this will be my next reconstruction - we call them tipically noric swords in the time ab. 20 BC. But i saw not only the swords of the Lt D2 - i saw the Lt D1/D2, too. I told my theory to the Dr. D. Bozic, too.
Back to the exhibition of the Ljubljanica river-items: i saw there many swords and scabards and i used this item for making my reco - that means: i have different sword not the same from my grave Nr. 169 Beletov vrt of my equipment reco.
When i was in November in Saarland, Germany in museum in Völklingen by the opeining of the exhibition Die Kelten (we had living history programme there), i saw fragment of the same scabard as the scabard of my sword. I have foto of this fragment, too - the grave is in the cataloge, too - but from different wiev and in the cataloge we can not to see this fragment of the scabard. It has the same blade (again).
This link shows this type of the sword&blade (again):
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=1204

On the link of Kelticos forum i see the Knollenknaufschwert - i saw this item in Museum in Regensburg and the Sebastian from Regensburg has nice replica of this type of sword.

Joze

[Albertomv]

I always thought the spatha as a elongate gladius

[Joze Noriker]

Hi, here is another link of celtic = gallic sword -spatha, with the handle simmilar to roman's spatha and the name is "Ludwigshafen sword" - tipically later Lt sword (or "gallic sword"). I saw the orig. in museum Manching and Regensburg and they have blade the same as my sword and the sword from Filippovka:
http://forum.hassiaceltica.de/index.php?...ght=spatha
- please look of the foto of Catweals/Teutates but you can see the great reco of the sword from Stefan Jaroschinski, too.
Another late Lt sword from Hermeskeil, made by Günther Mainka aka Auxiliar:
http://forum.hassiaceltica.de/index.php?...eadID=3157

Joze

[Dan D'Silva]

Well, i believe that as shape and dimension of blade, Naue II can be considered the ancestor or grandmother of most of following long right swords.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you're suggesting that contact with cultures on the border using the Naue II influenced the Celts and Sarmatians to make larger swords out of their daggers, that would be an interesting hypothesis, especially if you could establish that the Naue II abutted the development of these swords in place and time. Not knowing of such evidence myself, I'd attribute wanting a longer sword to simple utility in horseback fighting.

[Dan Howard]

4) We agree on this point. Scale armor might even pre-date the bronze age. But it's origin cannot be contested. It arrived from the steppes with the horse. :grin:

It's origin can most definitely be contested. See Squamata thread.
http://www.ancient-warfare.org/rat.html?...&id=294818

[Conal]

Well, i believe that as shape and dimension of blade, Naue II can be considered the ancestor or grandmother of most of following long right swords.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you're suggesting that contact with cultures on the border using the Naue II influenced the Celts and Sarmatians to make larger swords out of their daggers, that would be an interesting hypothesis, especially if you could establish that the Naue II abutted the development of these swords in place and time. Not knowing of such evidence myself, I'd attribute wanting a longer sword to simple utility in horseback fighting.

Another reason could be metalurgical...that only after time was the skill set to make iron/steel of sufficient strength/flexibilty to make them viable.

[diegis]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you're suggesting that contact with cultures on the border using the Naue II influenced the Celts and Sarmatians to make larger swords out of their daggers, that would be an interesting hypothesis, especially if you could establish that the Naue II abutted the development of these swords in place and time. Not knowing of such evidence myself, I'd attribute wanting a longer sword to simple utility in horseback fighting.

Yes, something along those lines. Naue II swords (as model) was in use both in Bronze Age and in Iron Age, up to 700 BC at least

http://web.archive.org/web/2008031819223...enschwert/

This sword was spread all over Europe by those invasion waves from around 1200 BC, originating from Danubian-Carpathian areas, and who reached even China. So for sure the proto-Scythians or proto-Sarmatians encountered them.

It is a posibility, but as much as possible, if not more, is that some later longer swords to be just a development of their smaller variants or versions already in use

[bachmat66]

Let us not forget - in the history of origin of long swords in Europe and Western Asia - the Cimmerians who possessed very long bimetal swords with cruciform handle who had come in contact with the Thracian populations of Danube region sometime during the 9th century B.C.E. and who later spread west, all the way to Atlantic, with their swords and horse tack when running away from the early Scythians. Also Kuban culture warriors were using both short and long swords. Nota bene Scythians also had long swords apart from their akinakes 'dager'

[Alanus]

4) We agree on this point. Scale armor might even pre-date the bronze age. But it's origin cannot be contested. It arrived from the steppes with the horse. :grin:

It's origin can most definitely be contested. See Squamata thread.
http://www.ancient-warfare.org/rat.html?...&id=294818

Back to you, Dan,

Perhaps the origin can be "contested," but not convincingly. :wink:
See the newer posts on the Squamata thread by Dariusz and myself.

As far as the "origin" of the spatha goes, the above posts are displaying varied cultures that influenced one-another, in many cases within neighboring geographical locations to the forming "Celtic" genesis. mile:

[Alanus]

Nathan!

I forgot about Spartacus. You have a good point. He went up and down the Italic peninsula almost unchecked, and it seems logical that "Thracian" methods, possibly equipment, must have had an influence.

[quisslan]

I have been a member here for a little while but have only posted once or twice?
I find this discussion very interesting. However there are a few things that I think that are worth mentioning in no particular order of importance.
One of the things that I think that is important is to not underestimate the influence of steppe cultures on the whole Eurasian continent. It all depends on how far back you are willing to go. I mean really far back. I mean 1400BC in not that far back and 600BC is almost yesterday.
With that being said, I think that some of this, our current discussion about the origin of the spatha and who started what, might all be forever tentative because of the inevitability of new discoveries and the demon of sample size.
Something else that I feel that is of "suma importancia" is to not hold to an "evolutionary type" chronology of artifacts too high in regard. Things come in "milieus", rises and falls, forgettings and relearnings, and several out right surprises that throw the comfortable 19th century Victorian progression of things that we have been trained in since 1st grade on its head. And no I am not some fringe type of thinker. But what was on the fringes a few years ago is now almost center anyway...
I will have to find it but I remember reading a text recently that was talking of iron production find well before the first Bronze Age.
To all of you I commend you for having the guts to talk about the things that are talked about on this forum. It is all very exciting.
I do hope that none of this comes across as condescending in any way. I am honored to be among you all.

[Alanus]

I have been a member here for a little while but have only posted once or twice?
I find this discussion very interesting. However there are a few things that I think that are worth mentioning in no particular order of importance.
One of the things that I think that is important is to not underestimate the influence of steppe cultures on the whole Eurasian continent. It all depends on how far back you are willing to go. I mean really far back. I mean 1400BC in not that far back and 600BC is almost yesterday.
With that being said, I think that some of this, our current discussion about the origin of the spatha and who started what, might all be forever tentative because of the inevitability of new discoveries and the demon of sample size.

Hailog, Quisslan
and welcome to RAT,

Yes, the demon of so few examples will forever plague us.
The above posts are wonderful, showing the array of early swords that could have indirectly or directly influenced the "longsword" and then the spatha.

Everyone must forgive me for being the almost lone champion of steppe inventiveness. Here, on the steppes, we find the earliest horsemen, the earliest chariot, and the multitude of progressive weapons that would accompmany a mobile force. I brought up the subject of the Filippovka sword design because it was a good one, although phased out for the simplicity of rapid production. The raised central ridge of the Filippovka example actually dates back to the Yamnaya kurgans, tanged daggers in bronze, and the untanged (rivited) Usatovo style-- both types going back to 3,300 to 2,800 BC. This is prior to bronze work by the Chinese; and it would appear that the central-ridged double-fullered oriental style might be traced back to these early steppe cultures.

As you say, we should not underestimate the importance of the early steppe cultures, who, in a sense, transmitted many things Indo-European in the pre-Celtic-Dacian-Roman period. The steppe was the Great Super-Highway of prehistory, made possible by the horse.

In any discussion, whether it be spathas-swords or scale-lamellar armor (see the Lorica Squamata thread), I will push for possible steppe origins. I'm not always right. But someone has to champion the inventiveness of steppe barbarians. As more kurgans are opened, we seem to be discovering more and sometimes shocking information. I suppose, due to my age, this is "Alan's Last Crusade." But I enjoy it. :grin:

[quisslan]

Thank you Alanus for your kind words! Yes I think that you are correct about the importance of the steppe cultures. They are very exciting and I think that there are some very mistily ancient finds that are still to be found. The more I read about them the more interesting I find them. This might be childish, but the more things that are discovered and the farther back we go and find that things were not as primitive as we used to think, the more I get that sliver of imagination that hints that REH might have been too terribly far off...