Sarmatian origins of the spatha?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Alan,

While I usually agree with you on most points, I'm not too sure Sarmatian-Alanic recruits discarded their "native" armor and weapons in favor of prevelent Roman ones. By the late 2nd and 3rd centuries, we see an increase in longer swords, spathas. This could be a steppe influence or possibly "self generating," the latter being doubtful.

We have a "Roman cavalryman" on the Arch of Galarius (c.300) wearing a nice early spangenhelm. The funerery stele of the draconarius at the Grosvenor Museum, Chester, shows a man who can be no other than a Sarmatian, wearing a native-styled helmet, scale armor, with (the real clincher) an akinakes strapped to his right leg. I would think he was not a fresh recruit, but someone who was endeared to his men, perhaps even a veteran. I'm thinking of John Conyard's statement in the above "recycled" post. The introduction of weapons and armor, to each culture-- Roman and Sarmatian-- was a two-way road. And you do not discard something that works if it's not broken. :grin:

I think we are still in agreement, because I should probably have elaborated.
Indeed, I did not mean that all native equipment was replaced with Roman arms & armour when entering Roman service.
First of all, if a soldiers (individual or in a group) only entered service for a campaign, he would probably have retained what he add, only adding material he liked better or did not have in the first place. Those spangenhelmets could well belong to such a group, or to the next category.
Next, a group entering the service for a prolonged period of time or indeed the rest of their military career, would not have dropped their arms & armour immediately. I agree that if it was good enough, it would have been retained until replacement was necessary. But at that moment, I think that in most cases the Roman fabrica would have provided the replacement material. That would in some cases, I agree, include arms & armour copied from the non-Roman troops.
Only in the case of specialist weapons or when the fabrica did not provide anything similar, I think that native weapons would have been retained. Not helmets I think (hence my thoughts about those early spangenhelmets), but perhaps swords. As weapons trade across the border was forbidden, I think that maybe a unit of Sarmatians might have used their own smith to provide a non-Roman weapon, until either the demand ended or the ability of the smith to make such items. All non-Roman troops eventually Romanised.

[Alanus]

Back to you, Robert
Good grief, I'm still logged in. :lol: Must have forgotten to log out.

Yes, we are mostly in agreement in the longer paragraph. As you said, a group of foederati employed for a single campaign would retain native weapons and armor. A good example would be the 10,000 Goths used by Theodosius against Eugenius. After the battle of Frigidus, they were released and went back home (Aleric in a black mood, which would have lasting consequences).

I agree about weapons being phased out. However, the continued use of longer swords, c. late 2nd and early 3rd cent., probably accounts for the Roman adoption of the spatha. Certainly, the Romans were aware of long swords-- the weapons had lengthy histories in Celtic warfare going back to Vercingetorix and beyond. Yet it wasn't until the influx of Sarmatian (and here I mean "Alanic")recruits that we find the longer sword in regular service. And here, too, it may be likely that the native spatha, more like a jian, actually, was coveted over the lesser tempered ones produced in the fabricae. (Recent evidence points to these steppe weapons being made of folded steel, based on newer techniques of metal analysis.)

But the helmets were likely replaced with Roman ones, as you've mentioned.

Basically, I'm urging George Sempronius to follow through with as "Sarmatianish" gear as he might be able to kit himself. In essence, he would be portarying a short-time foedoratus. After all, this is the "Show Your Sarmatian Imperssion" thread. My point in starting it was simply trying to play "catch up" with the other native costume/equipment threads, the Germanic and Celtic ones being far older and more popular. :wink:

[Alanus]

Trying to provoke a discussion, eg: by relating, via Sauromatae, the Iazyges to the the western Scythians and repeating the 'old lore' about the short swords and lack of heavy armor, don't you?

Bachmat66,

To you and other readers of this thread: I use historical material by original writers, Herodotus, Ammianus Marcellinus, Arrian, Zosimus, etc. For archaeological references, we have an entire spectrum from Harmatta to a dozen Russians, all "newer" writers, and not one of them is using or repeating "old lore," as you phrased it.

The view of steppe "barbarians" is changing, more informed. And it's all for the better. :grin:

[Robert Vermaat]

Yet it wasn't until the influx of Sarmatian (and here I mean "Alanic")recruits that we find the longer sword in regular service. And here, too, it may be likely that the native spatha, more like a jian, actually, was coveted over the lesser tempered ones produced in the fabricae. (Recent evidence points to these steppe weapons being made of folded steel, based on newer techniques of metal analysis.)

I was under a strong impression that the cavalry used the spatha long before any Alanic recruits entered the Roman army?
Any information available as to the metallic contstruction of Roman spathae, compared to steppe weapons?

[Alanus]

I was under a strong impression that the cavalry used the spatha long before any Alanic recruits entered the Roman army?
Any information available as to the metallic contstruction of Roman spathae, compared to steppe weapons?

Hello again, Robert

I'm at work and unable to access notes and articles. By "Alanic" we should roll back the calender to include the earlier tribal migrations of Roxolani, ie post-Iazage, which appeared from the eastern culture. This connects the eastern long sword (mentioned by Tacitus and found in many Sarmatian 2 and 3 graves) with the spatha's introduction. The only difference is the wider blade... and possibly a lesser temper. (But it's hard to be critical of fabricae work as of yet. I don't think the steel content of spathas has been tested.)

Generally, the older view (perhaps what Bacmatt66 referred to)considered "Sarmatians" and steppe societies in general as simplistic, especilly in the development of metal technology. In the past 15 years, the view is changing. Now we are beginning to realize that the steppe culture introduced bronze-working to a neolithic China. The Chinese give us a platform for the advancement of steel colatterally developed upon the steppe itself. We have folded steel cira 2nd cent. BC, laminated steel one century later.

At the kurgans of Flippovka, we find intricately welded edged weapons that date previous to this, going back to the 4th cent. BC. Equally sophisticated swords and akinakae, of the same age, have been found underwater at Issyk Kul, "metalwork only done today within the medium of inert gas." Laminated steel dates to BC-AC, overlapping. One test analyzed 4 early Alanic swords, showing a high carbon content associated with folding (ie Damascus steel)... or even possibly "watered" as in Wootz.

All of these weapons were forged before the major Alanic incursion in Europe and originated upon the steppes. I don't find it extraordinary, especially when we look at the socketed bronze lance/spear head found in the early chariot grave at the base of thed Urals (2,000 BC). We know that Saka-Alanic cultures often settled into towns when not under major migration. (Ammianus and Herodotus viewed the migration, not the sedentary side.)

Sophisticated steel in the east has a longer history than in the west, and recent metallic studies show, for instance, that the "famed" steel ingots used to produce quality Viking swords originated in Afganistan.

In the final run, barbarian societies appear to have surpassed Roman and Greek culture in the manufacture of edged weapons. But the Chinese improved steppe techniques; and we see the introduction of clay-tempered steel in the late 1st century, a style of manufacture passing across to Japan as the predecessor of the Samuri sword.

I apologize for the length of this post. I collect and reproduce eastern edged weapons, fascinated by the amazing skill imparted. :mrgreen:

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Alan,

Thanks fort hat post (I did not mind its length), but you still have me miffed by that early statement about the date of introduction of the spatha into the Roman army. Two questions, then:

1) when do think that the Roman army first began to use the spatha?
2) was this due to steppe recruits (or ‘Alan’ or from any comparable origin) entering the Roman army?

[Alanus]

Hi Alan,

1) when do think that the Roman army first began to use the spatha?
2) was this due to steppe recruits (or ‘Alan’ or from any comparable origin) entering the Roman army?

Back to you, Robert (with an Ooops! enclosed)

1) I gave the wrong century, even though I personally portray an early Alan recruit, for instance in the first few decades. I meant "late 1st century into the 2nd," and actually I think the period of introduction might be shortly after the AD 40. At this time, the Roxolani had reached the lower Danube opposite Scythia Minor. By AD 60, they were hitting settlements in Moesia. A significant battle ocurred in 62, and around this time a Roman legion was almost destroyed, I think. In the winter of 68-69, we have our best description of these early Alans by Tacitus. They lost an ice-battle, weighed down with booty; and their armor was so heavy they had a hard time getting back onto their feet after toppling from their mounts. (Massagetae-styled cataphracts) The description runs... "their use of long lances and swords with two hands." The archaeological record confirms the sword lengths, up to 100cm.

During this period, the Roman army would have employed Roxolani as inerpreters and scouts, probably lesser nobles who wanted to climb the Roman ladder. This would be the period (AD 60s to century-end) when the Alanic long sword evolved into the Roman spatha. There is some varience, from the earliest spathas-- narrow-bladed and somewhat Alanic-- to the later, wider-bladed, spatha that became the norm by the beginning of the 2nd Century. I'm basing that statement on what remains of funery steles, a narrow-bladed example like this:
[attachment=1506]spatha011.JPG[/attachment]
Mid to late 1st century, Landesmuseum, Mainz. Perhaps we are looking at "artistic license" but the sculpting appears technically accurate.


Here are blade-width reproductions of a few long-swords of this period, the spatha included:
[attachment=1507]spatha003.JPG[/attachment]
They represent a narrow width 8-sided clam-shell, folded steel (Alanic), medium width double-fullered, welded from 3 twisted rods (Filippovka), and 4-sided wide-width, tempered steel Roman spatha. All the blades are about the same weight, only the configuration changes; and the Roman spatha is the simplest to produce by "mass production."

2) Do I think the Roxolani blades influenced the birth of the spatha? Yes. Certainly, Celtic (and perhaps Germanic) long swords existed prior to this introduction, but they were never adopted, and they seldom exceeded 75-80cm in length.

I think I'm correct, that the mid 1st century presaged the use of the wider spatha by the introduction of the Alanic long-sword through native recruits joining the Roman cavalry. And then by the end of the century we have a formalized standard, such as this example:
[attachment]C:\\fakepath\\spatha 012.JPG[/attachment]

I'm sorry for the initial confusion. Sometimes the date in my head never makes it to the date I type. :mrgreen:

PS: This site or is not allowing the above 012.JPG to appear. It's a standard wider spatha on a late 1st century stele.

[Robert Vermaat]

Thanks Alan!

PS: This site or is not allowing the above 012.JPG to appear. It's a standard wider spatha on a late 1st century stele.

The image might be too large; if you resize it, it may show up.

[Alanus]

The tip appreciated, Robert

The jpg is probably too large. I'll cut it down and try again tomorrow-- the picture is in my home computer, not this work computer. Several steles present a wide spatha, and I "borrowed" a pic from Dixon & Southard.

I might add that the narrow-bladed sword continued into at least the 6th century, known as the "migration-era sword." By sometime around mid-2nd century, the grip was as short as the spatha. These swords have been pictured on previous RAT threads, sometimes called Gothic or Hunnic, but their origin was oriental. The oldest one that I've located was in a Sarmatian 2 grave, a beauty-- classic Chinese and bronze. I have, for a number of years, been fascinated by this phenomenon: the transmitting of a oriental sword into western culture. Pliny mentions that good European blades were made in Noricum, probably Celtic, but he claimed the "best" came from "the east" along with silk.

An acquaintence of mine, sword expert Garrett Chan, also believes certain aspects of the oriental blade show up in later "Viking" swords. But the standard 4-sided spatha was hammered and ground to the same configuration as the classic gladius, a concession to mass production, not mass-produced in our modern sense but still a quicker method of finishing a blade and getting to the troops quickly.

(I'm sure original spathas were better-made than the repros made in India-- they temper tha blade in an electic oven-- and these modern versions can be bent through usage... and in fact, often arrive to the customer already bent and replete with "hammer marks" all along the blade. They also handle like "dogs.") :roll:

[Alanus]

Well, here it is!
Not really impressive, but old-- falling into the latter part of the 1st century. I don't think the spatha changed much from this configuration.
[attachment]C:\\fakepath\\spatha 012.JPG[/attachment]

[Alanus]

I'll try again.
[attachment]C:\\fakepath\\spatha 013.JPG[/attachment]

[Alanus]

I'll try again.
[attachment=1550]spatha012.JPG[/attachment]
This is from a late 1st century stele, and I don't think the spatha changed much after this. Notice the scale armor, another Sarmatian/Alanic innovation. :wink:

[scotti73]

I'm sorry folks I've got to disagree with the dates and origin of the spatha, to my mind the spatha has a Gallic origin and is simply an evolution of the long slashing swords used by Gallic cavalry. Gallic cavalry in the early to mid 1st century AD made up the bulk of the Roman cavalry force. With regard to scale armour, surely the eastern imperial provinces had been on contact with nations using scale for a long time
Obviously we should not underestimate the impact of Alannic culture on the Roman army but in the 1st century this impact was minimal.

[Alanus]

I'm sorry folks I've got to disagree with the dates and origin of the spatha, to my mind the spatha has a Gallic origin and is simply an evolution of the long slashing swords used by Gallic cavalry. Gallic cavalry in the early to mid 1st century AD made up the bulk of the Roman cavalry force. With regard to scale armour, surely the eastern imperial provinces had been on contact with nations using scale for a long time
Obviously we should not underestimate the impact of Alannic culture on the Roman army but in the 1st century this impact was minimal.

Hello, Richard

I tend to agree and disagree. :grin:
For the scale armor I said, "Sarmatian/Alanic." And this seems to be the cultural root of scale armor mentioned by the historians of the period. I don't think the impact was minimal but rather the beginning of a trend. Besides the Iazages, there were two other Sarmatian tribes living along the lower Danube and up into Pannonia. Right behind the Iazages, right at their heels, were the Roxolani-- in other words, Alans.

As for the spatha, you have a point. Perhaps a good one. I had always assumed the spatha would have originated with the Celts, yet the Celts were in Roman service for over a half century before the spatha shows up. Why wasn't the long sword adopted in the latter part of the 1st century BC? Also the Celtic "longsword" was about 20cm shorter than the Alanic one, somewhere between a gladius and the fully-developed spatha. This whole thing intriques me, as mentioned in an earlier post.

[Robert Vermaat]

I've split this topic from the original thread because it warrented it's own subject thread, while moving away from the Sarmatian impression (my bad, I know).