Legio II beyond the realms of Exeter

[66kbm]

In years gone by the extent of 1st century occupation to the west was Exeter....i'll be brief,so many forts,fortlets,marching camps have been discovered both here in Devon and Cornwall,it makes one wonder what was really going on,what where II AVG doing in the early years and the auxillaries,of who i have no knowledge, that took over these locations, must have had thier work cut out manning all these stations,especially after II AVG left for Gloucesteshire in mid 60AD.I know this is rather specific but i would appreciate any feedback from members.
Thanks
Kevin

[muskitear]

Punch in Legion II Augusta into Google. Pick Wikipedia and that will give you the full run down on what was regarded the BEST Legion

[Robert Vermaat]

what was regarded the BEST Legion

My apologies Mike, but I'm going to have to say this name to you: Boudicca.

[Vindex]

I like to think of the II Augusta as the prospecting legion. Silver in the south west, gold in Wales :wink:

There's an interesting collection of papers called The Second Augustan Legion and the Roman Military Machine edited by Richard J Brewer. Published by the National Museum and Galleries of Wales, 2002.

[Crispvs]

The mineral wealth of Cornwall and south Wales was well known and heavily exploited in ancient times. Might the presence of Legio II Augusta and a host of fortlets indicate a heavy military presence to regulate the trade in tin, copper and silver, with soldiers stationed in fortlets to provide local enforcment ability in order to maintain control of shipments and prevent smuggling?

Crispvs

[Vindex]

The mineral wealth of Cornwall and south Wales was well known and heavily exploited in ancient times. Might the presence of Legio II Augusta and a host of fortlets indicate a heavy military presence to regulate the trade in tin, copper and silver, with soldiers stationed in fortlets to provide local enforcment ability in order to maintain control of shipments and prevent smuggling?

Crispvs

That's what I meant by the prospecting legion...

Were you aware that a coin counterfeit set up may be the plausible explanation for all the coin moulds found in an excavation near Yeovil in Somerset?

Fascinating...hijack the mined ore and make your own coins. Don't you just love the Durotriges? :wink:

[Caratacus]

,so many forts,fortlets,marching camps have been discovered both here in Devon and Cornwall,it makes one wonder what was really going on,what where II AVG doing in the early years and the auxiliaries,of who i have no knowledge, that took over these locations, must have had their work cut out manning all these stations,especially after II AVG left for Gloucestershire in mid 60AD.

Picture this:

You land in a strange land, full of 'savages'. You have no real idea of the local topography, the population or their military strengths/weaknesses. What do you do?

I would suggest a "reconnaissance in strength". Tacitus tells us exactly this. The legio II Augusta was sent off, under Vespasian, to see what there was in the south-west of the island (they were not even aware that it WAS an island at that time). He (Tacitus) says that they fought a number of battles and 'captured' 20 'oppida' (towns - maybe?).

When you get about as far as your can (Exeter - Isca Dumnoniorum), you build a legionary base and then a series of fortlets to guard your l-of-c. These you leave under the control of your second line troops. Once things settle down, you move your shock troops (the legion), first back to Gloucester and then to Isca at Caerleon. This fortress becomes one of the three permanent legionary garrisons in Britannia. It also acts as a pivotal fortress for the auxiliary forts into the South West as well as those in South Wales as far west as Carmarthen. (You do the same with Chester with legio XX, but here the fortress line terminates at Caernarfon - Segontium).

Not stupid, those Romans!

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[66kbm]

Hi all
Its taken a while and i apoligise but....why was the so called Legionare Fortress made/built to a smaller size than a Legion usually took space..approx 40 acre instead of a full Legionary compliment of 52 acres...please crrect me if i am wrong...did the full legion make it to Exeter or did they drop Cohorts on route from the west? so what size army/legionares/auxilariels were actually based in the southwest...remembering the fort at Topsham and the site of the old St Loyes College...apperently all first century...the archeologists can confirm...i cant...and other 1st century sites....as in the words of the sgt major in the film "Zulu"...Romans to the west...thousands of them

[mcbishop]

why was the so called Legionare Fortress made/built to a smaller size than a Legion usually took space..approx 40 acre instead of a full Legionary compliment of 52 acres

All those ellipses make it look like you're drowning and typing at the same time! I hope somebody throws you a lifebelt. Meanwhile, back at the question, the larger-sized fortresses generally held more than just a legion, typically an auxiliary ala at the very least, often an auxiliary cohort too. Lack of detailed excavations in most fortresses means our knowledge is poor in this area, but there are enough archaeological, epigraphic, sub-literary and literary sources to show that such mixed garrisoning was standard practice. So the reason Exeter was smaller could easily have been because it had no auxiliaries within it, but such sites usually have an auxiliary base nearby, because the pairing of a legion with an ala seems to have been a hard-and-fast rule.

Mike Bishop

[Caratacus]

As I remember, the Exeter site is a bit 'odd'. It isn't the 'normal' playing card shape and it looks as though they built it to fit the ground that they had rather than taking the time and the trouble to landscape the area to the usual shape - almost as though they didn't really expect to stay there for that long a period of time?

I've always been a bit worried/suspicious about the designation of Hod Hill as a legionary base. It's in the middle of nowhere (is this really where you want to leave a cohort of your best troops?), it is too small for a cohors equitata quingenaria (about 2/3rd the number of contubernia required) but there are what have been identified as cavalry stables/barracks there. The sole 'evidence' for the legionary presence seems to be a few bits of lorica seg and there are also a few bits that have been identified as being pilum heads but there were also many more flat-bladed spears. It is, as they say, "a puzzlement". Is this evidence that leg II Augusta was 'dropping off' garrisons to guard the l-of-c, or were they seriously understrength when they built the Exeter fortress? Perhaps not too surprising if they were, given the hard-fought campaign they were involved with, maybe?

Mike Thomas

[Vindex]

Ahem...slightly off topic, but Hod Hill is NOT in the middle of no where. hock:

I don't beleive the Romans ever put anything "in the middle of no where"...except, perhaps for Bremia in Wales!! :wink:

Why would you not take over such a good strategic/defensive position with such a view over the area and, having hunted over this, it is ideal cavalry country and not too difficult for infantry either (if a bit boggy in winter).

...and whole theories about Legions have been based on a few bits of "lorica seg"...

Apologies, off soap box...

[mcbishop]

As I remember, the Exeter site is a bit 'odd'. It isn't the 'normal' playing card shape and it looks as though they built it to fit the ground that they had rather than taking the time and the trouble to landscape the area to the usual shape - almost as though they didn't really expect to stay there for that long a period of time?

Well it's pretty 'normal' by comparison with some I could mention (Carnuntum, for instance) and most legionary fortresses (and, indeed, most forts) were adapted to the terrain, rather than the Roman army undertaking major terraforming exercises. Housesteads is a prime example of fitting the base to the available space (rotating it through 90°, terracing the praetorium, and even nudging Hadrian's Wall a few metres further north in order to fit it in).

The sole 'evidence' for the legionary presence seems to be a few bits of lorica seg and there are also a few bits that have been identified as being pilum heads but there were also many more flat-bladed spears. It is, as they say, "a puzzlement".

Ye gods, the man doth utter heresy! ;-) The 'few bits' include two collets and six heads with shanks. Looking forward to your explanation of what they are doing there, Dr Thomas hock: Most legionary fortresses produce a similar range of weapon types.

Is this evidence that leg II Augusta was 'dropping off' garrisons to guard the l-of-c, or were they seriously understrength when they built the Exeter fortress? Perhaps not too surprising if they were, given the hard-fought campaign they were involved with, maybe?

I suspect you would have been hard put to it to find any legion that was up-to-strength in its base, once outposting and vexillations off on tasks elsewhere had been accounted for. There is still a persistent notion that a legionary base has 5,000+ chaps kicking their heels and whitewashing coal. The subliterary record paints a very different picture.

Mike Bishop

[66kbm]

Its been a while and i have a cunning plan.This has more to do with II AVG in and around Isca Dumnoniorum than anything else.Now i'm no profesional,just a local lad with too many questions.Does anyone remember the TV programe with Dr Alice "mmm" Roberts having found a so called new settlement in "Devon",bear with me,does anyone know of this place as i reckon its the Vicus outside the marching camp near North Tawton...i could well be wrong but i have no access to the available info.Now that particular camp is more than large enough for a whole Legion plus its nearby fort whereas exeter is not.Now someone is gonna shout at me now but i reckon the Legion(II AVG) actually advanced thus far and then said...."sod it" lets go back to...Isca/Exeter and build a base there,leaving behind some auxillaries at Okehampton as this is proven to be an older fort than that attached to the marching camp at North Tawton.Hence with Legionaries and Auxillaries "scattered" across the county in various locations the Legionary Fortess of Exeter did not need to be built at full size.
Someones gonna rip me apart but its a good idea going with the knowledge i know.
Remember,Exeter must of been a prime site before Roman times as post holes of an earlier age were found under the earliest remains.
Footnote....The Bath house remains,still buried under the Cathederal green,should really be excavated thouroughly and displayed permenantly.
These are my ideas and suggestions,wrong or right
Thanks for reading
Kevin

[Vindex]

I don't think your musings are utterly outrageous at all, and yes the Cathedral Green should be handed over but can't see it happening, sadly. It was excavated thoroughly, I believe, in 1970s.

I visited Exeter University last year and there was an artcle from the local paper on a notice board mentioning a Roman camp which had been found at a silver mine WAAAY further south. Not at all expected but I don't think linked to the Second by evidence. I've just remembered this whilst reading your post so I will go and see if I wrote down any notes from it as it was a very small scale excavation (done by the Uni I think) and will disappear into the Grey literature - unless any other scholars on the RAT picked it up.

My point for mentioning it is that if one of the glorious Second's roles was to locate and exploit local resources (bearing in mind Caerleon and the gold mine at Luentinum) a "forward operating base" as you discuss may well be feasible.

But I'll join you in hiding behind the sofa in case someone savages us both - and you can share my bottle of wine...

[Cavok]

Is it not similar all over the Empire?

Take my current stomping area Augsburg is way back from the front line and there are many little bases in between.

I mean the REMF's would not want to be to near to any sudden flare up.


Can someone tell my mom to send some socks over to Abusina for me its damn cool over here.