ranked phalanx of vase

[PMBardunias]

Perhaps, but these are Amazons, so I'd say all bets are off as to where she should be stationed. She could be seen as the amazon leader. Obviously the artist is attempting to mix mythology with war as he knew it. Iolus is a hoplite here while Heracles fighting by his side is a swordsman with a bow.

[rrgg]

If the edge on position was only used to show the image on the shield then there shouldn't be anyone shown holding it that way if they are facing to the right. Additionally wouldn't it be somewhat consistent with some of the more modern spearmen we do know about?

[Sean Manning]

Large strapped shields are usually held in one of two positions in medieval combat art: the "outside ward" with the shield roughly vertical on the left side leading with the part of the rim closest to the hand, and the "high ward" with the shield in front of the body with the bottom edge leading and the top edge close to the fighter. The "outside ward" is preferred by the few renaissance arts that teach fighting with round, strapped shields, because it gives good reach and visibility. See Paul Wagner and Steven Hand, "Early Medieval Shield Techniques" in Spada (Chivalry Bookshelf, 2003), and Stephen Hand, Further Thoughts on the Mechanics of Combat with Large Shields", Spada II (Chivalry Bookshelf, 2005) (NB. that many Chivalry Bookshelf authors are suing the press for failing to pay royalties).

[PMBardunias]

I would not call the men in the image you show in outside ward. There are very good illustrations from fencing manuals of such. Roud-shield fencers often step through with the right leg on thrusting which is unlikely in spearmen, and ths may be part of the reason the ward is popular. Those men look to me like they are holding the shield mostly in front of them. They may be in motion, the man on the right appears to be delivering a thrust and swiveling his torso to the left, so this may play into the appearance. Hopefully the man on the left does not stand static with that left leg so extended!

[Ncioran]

Paul,

There are some very clear pictures on the vases of hoplites stepping forward with the right leg to thrust with a spear. I'll look up the revere ES when I get back to Torono and post them.

Have fun,
Cole

[Ncioran]

Here is a nice one of a right leg forward thrust from a hoplite, Beazely 200479 British Museum 1929 11 11 1, 525-475 BCE...

A quick survey of my database shows approximately 20% of hoplites fighting with spear are depicted in a right foot forward pose. Often these figures are fighting from behind another hoplite, either standing or in the act of falling as in the example. My interpretation is that this is a position adopted to increase the range of the spear thrust. The interesting thing is that by doing so the hoplite exposes himself to some risk, as he is not well covered. No safe fight for them

Enjoy,
Cole

[Kineas]

I'd say as a near certainty that men stepped through with the right leg as part of a thrust. Or if they didn't... they weren't fighting.

[Sean Manning]

What do you mean exactly? Just turning the hips can power a powerful blow with the rear hand, although reach will be greater with a pace, but I haven't worked with Greek hopla.

I would guess that striking with a pace was preferred for single combat, and striking with the feet fixed was preferred in a line. The one 16th century manual on single combat with partisan (in the overhand grip) and rotella (probably in the outside ward) mostly uses passes to power strikes and parries. A hoplite running into combat would not always be able to chose which foot was forward when he struck!

Paul, I don't see any other martially sound way to interpret the hoplite with the centaur shield blazon in the image you linked than outside ward. We also see this guard in freestanding Greek sculpture such as the Solocha Comb.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I could be missing something, but would you not drive off with the right leg?
the left leg leading, with the aspice to the front?

[Lyceum]

What do you mean exactly? Just turning the hips can power a powerful blow with the rear hand, although reach will be greater with a pace, but I haven't worked with Greek hopla.

I would guess that striking with a pace was preferred for single combat, and striking with the feet fixed was preferred in a line. The one 16th century manual on single combat with partisan (in the overhand grip) and rotella (probably in the outside ward) mostly uses passes to power strikes and parries. A hoplite running into combat would not always be able to chose which foot was forward when he struck!

Paul, I don't see any other martially sound way to interpret the hoplite with the centaur shield blazon in the image you linked than outside ward. We also see this guard in freestanding Greek sculpture such as the Solocha Comb.

You're clearly talking about Bolognaise stuff, perhaps Mancioliono? You're reasoning is actually rather sound, I don't necessarily have much to add. Other than the simple fact that if we follow VDH less closely and allow for more looser formations than the Ren fight books we have and what we know of body mechanics make a lot of sense in this context.

You can certainly make a lot of impressive strikes with the weapon leg behind, I would suggest one would have to adopt a Fiore dei Liberi esque front weighted stance with a stable core and decent grounding. Providing one has enough core and shoulder muscle (not difficult) and a decently weighted spear held in an over hand grip you can make parries rather easily and can control your opponents tempo/distance with things like shots to the shield rims, to the shins (but without exposing your head forward/losing your grounding)

I don't think any sensible footwork would allow us to fight with the front leg forward continuously anyway, one would have to move en passare so to speak with the legs passing over smoothly again a la Fiore.

I've noticed the way spear and target is trained in Sikh temples and one sees essentially the same thing, one gets essentially two types of passing attack: 1) a "beat" move i.e step forward strike and return 2) step forward strike and either i) another passing step plus guard position or ii) shield attack.

For using the spear in an over hand grip your best bet outside of the bolognaise school would be Shastar Vidya/Gatka when you can find it, lots of first hand sources from the British Empire and even some of the guards we see in cane fencing.

Anyway just wanted to say that. Long time lurker, no real intention of posting just got excited since I thought I saw a glimpse of some actual historical swordplay.

[Sean Manning]

I could be missing something, but would you not drive off with the right leg?
the left leg leading, with the aspice to the front?

I think that hoplites probably usually led with the left leg and struck with the rear, right hand by turning their hips and legs; a lot like boxers throwing a cross. Taking a pace forward (a normal walking step, where the rear foot becomes the lead foot or the lead foot becomes the rear foot) gives more power and reach, but would make it hard for the man next to you to protect your right side and back. Obviously this is just a generalization: hoplites might pass forward to push into a gap in the enemy line, or pass back to get some room during a spear fight, and some shield fighters prefer to lead with the right leg. I have never fought in a line or handled Greek kit (hopla), but this fits Greek art and the requirements of bodymechanics.

You're clearly talking about Bolognaise stuff, perhaps Mancioliono? You're reasoning is actually rather sound, I don't necessarily have much to add. Other than the simple fact that if we follow VDH less closely and allow for more looser formations than the Ren fight books we have and what we know of body mechanics make a lot of sense in this context.

Yes, Manciolino is the only author or living tradition I know of who covers any kind of spear and shield. Do you know what the Sikh dances with spear and shield are called? Despite being Canadian I know nothing about them.

I think its pretty clear that in a big battle, hoplite spearmen were supposed to have a space two cubits by two cubits to fight in; but its likely that those hoplites who bothered to learn spear and shield fighting focused on single combat (or martial dances which imitated single combat) anyways.

[Lyceum]

Yes, Manciolino is the only author or living tradition I know of who covers any kind of spear and shield. Do you know what the Sikh dances with spear and shield are called? Despite being Canadian I know nothing about them.

I think its pretty clear that in a big battle, hoplite spearmen were supposed to have a space two cubits by two cubits to fight in; but its likely that those hoplites who bothered to learn spear and shield fighting focused on single combat (or martial dances which imitated single combat) anyways.

The dances in particular? No idea, I can't name the dances in general unfortunately since it's been years (dhara-natje maybe?) I think we should attempt to distinguish between Sikh dances (gatka) which are a quick and easy way of passing on some fundamentals and conditioning and the way they actually fight (shastar vidya) which is a well thought out, if scarcely found, system that's pretty popular in places like Germany etc.

The link between martial dances and combat is an interesting one and something I'm actually intending on working on in a Greek context though I'm no longer of the opinion that they were particularly useful for those learning to actually fight.

Other living traditions? Well all the other stuff is African/Papua New Guinnean and what not and varies slightly from what I've seen out of Asia or in the Renn manuscripts.

I think if you want to assemble a decent "yardstick" from the fight manuals then it really is important to acquaint oneself with Manciolino despite the shortness of the section but also look how things like Partisans/Lanze/short spear were used across the board and learn the various positions of the rotella with whatever weapon possible. After a while you'll just pick up your spear/shield and based on all that something just clicks. I'm not saying that it's how the Greeks fought but it's 100% more sensible than the stuff I see re-enactors doing.

[Sean Manning]

Aargh ... RAT ate my first two replies by logging me out.

Thanks for the information on the Sikh arts. If any African spear-and-shield traditions survive, they don't seem to be taught outside of rural Africa. I'm not sure if the New Guinea highlanders use shields?

Right now I'm exploring the sources and available traditions for a few hours a month. The first step is to become a competent fighter in some traditional martial art that covers a variety of forms, and that takes several thousand hours. I'm about a quarter of the way there on Fiore's art. Then I can pick an ancient form and start compiling visual and textual evidence.

I think most sport fighters, like steel reenactors or the SCA, have rules which prevent a lot of historical techniques ... the SCA don`t allow fighters to attack the hands or shins, and steel reenactors heavily limit attacks to the face and neck and sometimes the forearms or shins. As a result, what works for their games isn't the same thing which worked for a 16th century Italian trying not to get a pike through the face.

[Lyceum]

Aargh ... RAT ate my first two replies by logging me out.

Thanks for the information on the Sikh arts. If any African spear-and-shield traditions survive, they don't seem to be taught outside of rural Africa. I'm not sure if the New Guinea highlanders use shields?

Right now I'm exploring the sources and available traditions for a few hours a month. The first step is to become a competent fighter in some traditional martial art that covers a variety of forms, and that takes several thousand hours. I'm about a quarter of the way there on Fiore's art. Then I can pick an ancient form and start compiling visual and textual evidence.

I think most sport fighters, like steel reenactors or the SCA, have rules which prevent a lot of historical techniques ... the SCA don`t allow fighters to attack the hands or shins, and steel reenactors heavily limit attacks to the face and neck and sometimes the forearms or shins. As a result, what works for their games isn't the same thing which worked for a 16th century Italian trying not to get a pike through the face.

You say that, and there may be some truth in that but the thing is with "knights" etc we know how they trained. The thing is, I'd take a person with a decent set of techniques trained to death in a live environment any day over the kind of person who spends so much time drilling a million different techniques but never sparring due to "safety" or whatever. Muscle memory etc counts for a lot, look what happened when Jigoro Kano first came up with Judo: his "sports" students pounded the hell out of all those other people from traditional schools utilizing ancient, proven techniques. The key here is how one trains.

I don't know at what point I can call myself a competent fighter. I've been Boxing and playing Judo for years, competed several times (and won) in both sports and spent the last year on Muay Thai and and BJJ (cliche, I know) and have had more than enough experience dealing with...unfriendly people.

I've been handling weapons since I was a small kid, not the ridiculous TMA stuff one sees in Kung Fu places but proper full contact stuff for the most part, i.e from the age of 6/7 I was always at the local temple learning all sorts, spears, tabar axes, swords, wrestling and some archery (my local temple was one of the few serious ones outside of India/Germany) and I've dabbled extensively in Kendo and the Filipino arts as well as Fencing (Sabre and Foil) for my university. I've been into HEMA (mainly Fiore and Vadi) for quite a few years now and we train pretty full on (only way to do it though) and the thing is, I still don't feel half way competent in many areas.

I don't mean simply to say that I feel incompetent in comparison to the people who had to use these techniques to survive, but that we#re faced with a huge mass of material across cultures and centuries with a million different weapons as well as several living arts and traditions and...and...I don't know it feels near impossible for us to get any real grasp on things, doesn't it?

Sorry for the long near autobiography, just thought I'd share experiences and to commiserate that I feel exactly the same. I agree with your methodology though that one has to first gain a serious grounding in any traditional form before attempting to reconstruct anything, even then it seems like such a doomed and fruitless endeavor...think I'll stick to my Homer.

EDIT: By the way, I know this is cheeky, but if in the coming months you stumble across any cool stuff germane to this topic, or the use of HEMA in reconstructing ancient stuff please, if it's no hassle, could you pass it on to me? I would be grateful.

[PMBardunias]

A quick survey of my database shows approximately 20% of hoplites fighting with spear are depicted in a right foot forward pose. Often these figures are fighting from behind another hoplite, either standing or in the act of falling as in the example. My interpretation is that this is a position adopted to increase the range of the spear thrust.

Cole and all,

First I have to apologize for posting something so obviously unclear and then dissapearing for the follow-up. I am a big proponent of hoplites fighting in the outside ward- there are a bunch of threads on here where I have posted images from later fencing manuals. What was not clear is that I wrote that in "this image" I do not think they are in outside ward. In general I think the outside ward was for individual combat, rather than fighting within the battle-line, while high ward would better protect from the threat of spears coming in from enemies to your right in line. This is sort of like underhand strikes while in formation, it surely could have been done, but it is not optimal when in formation. In fact it is dangerous. You can tell I disagree with some recently published opinions

Later fencers "step through" in a lunge with the right arm. This is surely done to increase range as well as to put the body mass into the lunge. A shield held to the side makes this movement faster. Hoplites did not stike this way- with a locked elbow and extended arm- when stabbing overhand. The overhand strike develops its power form the torquing of the body and the long acceleration of the spear due to the great range of motion compared to an underhand strike. This can involve keeping the legs in 3/4 stance and using the lower body to counter the motion of the upper body (for those who have never held a spear, think of a Tennis forehand). It can involve extending off the rearward right leg and moving forward with the left knee bent to increse reach (which also lowers your body). You can also push off of the left leg and step up with the right. As Cole points out this is greatly increases reach and is in fact a very common posture for hoplites striking with swords. This is not really the same thing as a fencer's lunge because the strike lags behind the setting of the front foot. The need to torque the body means that the shield in front is less of a probelm because your motion requres swinging it around. In a battle line this would probably have been "stepping up" to be square to the line rather than moving past the plane of that line and exposing your right side. All of these postures can be seen on the pediment of the temple at Aphaia. We have to be careful of course because the statues need to fit the triangular area, but I think they represent possible stikes.

By the way, this moving up of the rear leg to strike is a major reason why hoplites end up squished into their shields if the rest of the file is jostling forward. When you move up, the man behind you may have taken that space as he moves forward. Keeping men off the backs of the forefighters takes a great deal of discipline when their weapons can be brought to bear. As Cole showed it is natural for second rankers to try and reach over the forefighters. Arrian even describes this action of second men crowding front men as "othismos".