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+--- Thread: ranked phalanx of vase (/showthread.php?tid=18889)
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ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-23-2011
Vases are famous for not depicting the phalanx in ranks. To every rule there must be an exception:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0533.jpg
Khairete
Giannis
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - rrgg - 05-24-2011
Neat!
Does the man in the forefront have a loop on his spear?
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - hoplite14gr - 05-25-2011
But is is the second exception.
The fist is Chigi vase
Good attempt by the artist but he seems to have not been a hoplite!
The underarm thrusting is not for tight formations!
Unless the artists aim was to deliberatly make obvioys the second rank then Herakles has managed to get the guys (or gals I suspect these are Amazons) before they fully formed.
You need your shield to contact the frontrankers back to perform othismos.
Kind regards
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-25-2011
I don't see any underarm thrusting Stefane? Do you mean that they have raised shieds? I'd argue that we really don't know how stylized they are meant to be,nor do we know what really happened in a phalanx or how frequently. What was the "doratismos" for instance if not what we see in the vase? A number of other things,you could argue,but the one represented can not be excluded.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Robert Vermaat - 05-26-2011
Quote:Vases are famous for not depicting the phalanx in ranks. To every rule there must be an exception:Is the link broken?
![[Image: 1990.05.0533.jpg]](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0533.jpg)
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-26-2011
!!!
It worked for me some hours ago! Now i can't see it anymore!
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - rrgg - 05-26-2011
![[Image: 1990.05.0533.jpeg]](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0533.jpeg)
Was this it?
This one is definitely unique in that it shows both ranks and files.
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-26-2011
Yes it is this one. It does show rank and file,and also the archers behind the hoplites. It seems that heracles cought an archer before he managed to hide behind the phalanx!
Khaire
Giannis
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Sean Manning - 05-26-2011
A very interesting painting. Do you have other information about that pot, such as its catalogue number or date or what type of vase it is or what other images are on it? Its hard to use it academically wit just a JPEG.
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - PMBardunias - 05-27-2011
The vase is Malibu 77.AE.11. It is interesting for a number of reasons. See attached the portion to the left of what Giannis posted over the part he showed. Not only does it show what appear to be ranks and files as Giannis says, but look at the way the Amazons are intertwined, one fighting around the other. I think the first two ranks fought in a phalanx, so this is nice to see. Also, note the way the shields are held. We often see the shields held edge on so that we can see the blazons as on the chigi. Here we do as well, but at least two of the combatants show the shield facing the enemy, up at an angle as hoplite more likely fought. Whether this represents a moving vs fighting posture or simply a point at which it was obvious that artistic liscense had to give way to reality I cannot say. The combatant using his spear underhand also has the shield in the non-combat position, so perhaps this means something.
[attachment=965]Malibu77.AEHerakles.JPG[/attachment]
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - dark41 - 05-27-2011
Nice one Paul!
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-27-2011
Sorry, but I am not seeing this underhand technique?
All the spearmen are fighting overhand...plus one swordman, and a couple of bowmen...
where is the underhand fighter???? :-?
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-27-2011
Stefanos was right,the first rank hoplite is holding his spear underarm,his arm being mixed with the shield blazon of the second hoplite,and the hand of the hoplite next to him.
Paul,the posistions of shield depicted are not two but three. The hoplite of the second rank seems to have a boeotian shield as a blazon,and if you see carefully you'll notice that he's holding his shield at an angle,perhaps 3/4 to the left.
As id the hoplite falling in front of Iolaus,seen in the other side,in a more frequent posture.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - PMBardunias - 05-27-2011
The hoplite with the centaur on his shield is using her spear underhand. I'm wondering now if this may be tied to the fallen woman. Where would she have stood in the phalanx before she fell?
Re: ranked phalanx of vase - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-27-2011
The faller woman is an archer as i mentioned before. She probably was cought by Heracles while the other archers retreated behind the phalanx?