Dan, I agree with your point of view here. In fact, in reading through the many, many previous threads dedicated to the leather musculata debate, your arguments have been some of the most persuasive in forming my own opinion. Just wanted to clarify.
In regards to the illogical nature of proving a negative...my comment was made just to try to keep the mood light.
It seems to me that it might just be they used shorter musculata for people wanting more mobility and longer for people that did not care as much. We have examples of both from romand times and earlier in sculpture and images and surviving examples (earler times only). For example the ones below.
Also since we are talking about it here is some leather armor from different times even though I am not convinced it was in wide spread use by the Romans.
I'm stunned no one has mentioned this Roman suit of armour in the British Museum, dated to the 3rd Century AD. Whilst not a muscle cuirasse, it is made from an animal skin!
Quote:I'm stunned no one has mentioned this Roman suit of armour in the British Museum, dated to the 3rd Century AD.
I believe that item is now accepted to be part of a religious costume of some sort - for an Egyptian crocodile cult perhaps? - as it lacks any frontal protection and therefore wouldn't be much practical use as armour!
ValentinianVictrix post=283867 Wrote:I'm stunned no one has mentioned this Roman suit of armour in the British Museum, dated to the 3rd Century AD.
I believe that item is now accepted to be part of a religious costume of some sort - for an Egyptian crocodile cult perhaps? - as it lacks any frontal protection and therefore wouldn't be much practical use as armour!
I think thats probably a good interpretation, although of course it could be someone's homemade thoracomachus...
Unlikely since it was actually found in a temple to Sobek, the crocodile god. The obvious conclusion is that it had some sort of ceremonial purpose. Mummified crocodile remains were used in ceremonial rites; it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the skin was too.
"I'm stunned no one has mentioned this Roman suit of armour in the British Museum, dated to the 3rd Century AD."
Actually it is on a cover of a book of mine from 1997! I also think it has been mentioned in threads elsewhere on RAT.
It was originally captioned in the Museum as Roman parade armour but the British Museum website now says it may have been used in military ceremonies. It is not clear if the "helmet" now displayed with the "armour" was found with it or not. There is also no mention that I have seen that these finds came from a temple to Sobek only that the armour was found in a grotto near Manfalut along with other crocodile mummies. Perhaps there was a temple there?
There are at least two other crocodile skin helmets found in Egypt. My only thoughts on these and the 'armour' is that they appear to be fashioned to look like armour rather than crocodiles, i.e why make headgear to look like a helmet with cheek pieces etc.. rather than keep it looking like a crocodiles head? But who can see into the Romano Egyptian mind?
An amusing side-note is that a costume based on this 'armour' appears briefly in the film 'Cleopatra' (1963) so it has been known about for years.
Interesting that the BM website links you to another suit of leather 'armour' from South America but to save Dan getting all hot and bothered, it looks like a leather coat to me and it did have a bullet hole in it so I guess it did not work either!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Apologies. Looks like I've confused the region of Assiut with the city of Arsinoe, which is where a lot of Sobek temples were. Most of the crocodile mummies in Assiut are in caves in the mountains near Manfalut.
There was a lot of leather armour in south America. I'm not aware of any of it resembling musculatas or segmentatas though.
Quote:"I'm stunned no one has mentioned this Roman suit of armour in the British Museum, dated to the 3rd Century AD."
Actually it is on a cover of a book of mine from 1997! I also think it has been mentioned in threads elsewhere on RAT.
It was originally captioned in the Museum as Roman parade armour but the British Museum website now says it may have been used in military ceremonies. It is not clear if the "helmet" now displayed with the "armour" was found with it or not. There is also no mention that I have seen that these finds came from a temple to Sobek only that the armour was found in a grotto near Manfalut along with other crocodile mummies. Perhaps there was a temple there?
There are at least two other crocodile skin helmets found in Egypt. My only thoughts on these and the 'armour' is that they appear to be fashioned to look like armour rather than crocodiles, i.e why make headgear to look like a helmet with cheek pieces etc.. rather than keep it looking like a crocodiles head? But who can see into the Romano Egyptian mind?
An amusing side-note is that a costume based on this 'armour' appears briefly in the film 'Cleopatra' (1963) so it has been known about for years.
Interesting that the BM website links you to another suit of leather 'armour' from South America but to save Dan getting all hot and bothered, it looks like a leather coat to me and it did have a bullet hole in it so I guess it did not work either!
Graham.
Sorry, I completely forgot about your book Graham, and I must add I find your books invaluble when it comes to Roman military dress.
by the way, when are you going to complete the series, I'm particularly interested in the Late Roman one!
Do you know any primary sources of decorated musculata ? Everytime I look I see statues of emperors, but it seems there is not any archeological find ? (Maybe I forgot some links here ?)
