Phalearae on Standards

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

So here's the list of what we know so far:
...
2. Cohorts (although we know that they had some kind of distinctive that was visually recognized, e.g., the infiltrators during a civil war who entered the enemy camp by using purloined shields) may not have had standards anyhow, nor did centuries have their own.
...
4. The command "Ad Signa" would be meaningless unless there were signa placed somewhere around which to rally. Seems reasonable that there would be enough that any soldier anywhere on the field could find one to move toward. (Lots of sources, of course, but no need to list any of them here, right?)

2. Each century had its signum.
4. Every soldier would rally to his century's signum.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Romisch-Germanisches Zentral museum. (www.rgzm.de)

Many thanks

Howard / SPC

[M. Demetrius]

To bump an older question here:
Most if not all of the recreations I've seen are steel (or at least steel colored). Are there any original disks, lunae or other bits that are steel? Seems more like they would be brass or bronze, but maybe that's just a faulty gut feeling. Artifacts?

Are not the originals made with a large-headed rivets instead of the "bump" in the middle and soldered fastener on the back? It would be actually easier to make them that way, seeing as how I'm starting from a flat sheet of metal anyway. Certainly would be a whole lot stronger.

[Forty-One]

I'm not familiar with the current state of knowledge on this in archaeological circles, but I do recall that a copper alloy object found in one of the pits at Newstead was tentatively identified as a component of a standard:



But the brackets on the rear would seem to make that identification unlikely:

[M. Demetrius]

Just offhand, those look more adapted to fastening to a chest harness, as worn by a centurion. Thanks for that image. I've never seen that one.

[Crispvs]

Whatever the meaning of the discs on signa, they were obviously significant.
The stele of C. Valerius Secundus shows a signum with three discs.
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

The stele of Q. Luccius Faustus shows an identical signum, excepting that it has six discs. The extra discs must have been important because the sculptor has pushed the lower parts of the signum down into the area normally reserved for the text in order to accommodate them.
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

This shows that it was important for the sculptors to identify the signum as a particular example, as the act of extending it outside the normal frame stands in stark contrast to the common act of shrinking such things as shafted weapons and shields to make them fit within the frame.

With regard to the fragment of the plate which reads 'COH V...', if was indeed part of a standard, if seems likely to have been part of a unit standard, rather than a centurial one. An auxiliary cohort was a unit in its own right, whereas a legionary cohort was part of a larger body. Therefore, the 'COH V...' plate could be in some sense the equivalent of a legionary eagle rather than something equivalent to a subdivision of a legion.

Crispvs

[M. Demetrius]

That is a very interesting pair. *Why didn't I think of our stele database?) The Capricorn is a strange looking beast, isn't it? That element would be pretty difficult to manufacture, compared to the discs. That emblem could very likely have been the "mascot" of the legion to which these men were attached, but having the same mascot does not automatically mean the same legion. More than one legion had the bull or the boar, it seems
*
My plan for beating out the discs

1. Carve the shape into a block of wood, smoothly as I can get it.
2. Decide on the metal, cut a square and nail the corners down outside the disc
3. Use custom-made tools to tap the metal down into the wood
4. Remove the nails, turn the disc over, and define the edges of the raised areas, flattening the space as needed.
5. Cut the corners off and have a disc. Repeat as needed for however many discs I want.
6. Probably throw the first one away, as it likely won't be up to standard. (Pun certainly intended)

Seems like it will work, and be a little forgiving of a poor metalworker's clumsy hands, compared to working on fine detail like scabbard lockets, and other high-skill work, which is out of my ability. We'll see if my hopeful theory is correct soon.

So, then, what metal? Copper? Steel? Brass? Can't tell from sculpture. Tinned copper might be a good choice. Copper works easily enough compared with steel. I'm leaning toward steel anyway, though, since I could simply put a hole in the center and fasten it through the standard pole by using a large carriage bolt. If I used that technique with the other metals, I'd have to manufacture the "giant rivet" also. I'm not quite ready to start casting things like that. Copper rivets with 2cm heads are just not found at the local hardware store these days. :wink: And steel can be tinned, to reduce maintenance considerably.

[Crispvs]

Both of the men whose stelae I linked to were members of Legio XIIII GMV and I believe that there is further evidence for the capricorn being the totem animal of that legion. Both of these are frontal images and suggest a foreshortened embossed of a leaping capricorn. However, a coin minted for the legion at sometime during the third century AD, showed a standard from the side and showed the full front half of the capricorn projecting from the standard. Now, I am not suggesting that the third century AD standard resembled one of two centuries earlier anything more than superficially, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Ours can be seen here: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/p ... st_jpg.htm
here: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/p ... rk_jpg.htm
here: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/p ... 02_jpg.htm
and here: http://www.romanarmy.net/Rome%202008/Pa ... us_JPG.htm

For a material, I wold suggest that tinned brass would be consistent with normal Roman practice.

Crispvs

[M. Demetrius]

Very nice pictures, and a beautiful standard, Crispe. Your white metal appears to be tinned, is that the case?

What does it weigh?

IMHO, the 3rd Century standard's looking like the 1st C is not a logical stretch at all. The Romans were extremely attached to tradition, and superstitious about standards and eagles and such. In fact, except for the wood, it might even be that the elements were the very same pieces, repaired and polished as needed (maybe a disc or two added if we're thinking correctly that they were awards?) But that's just my opinion, not supported by anything but hot air.

[Matthew Amt]

If I were making new phalerae or having them made, I'd go either with *silvered* brass or bronze, or pure silver. The Romans considered the signum a sacred object, and tinning just feels a little cheap for that. I wouldn't use straight copper, since the Romans just never seemed to have used that.

I think loops on the back are better than bolts through the center, but again that's just a feeling, based on things like horse harness phalerae that have loops. Of course, that one c. 3rd century disc that survives, with the etched depiction of soldiers, has a square hole in the middle! But it's also silver, I believe. (And we don't know that it is from a signum, of course.)

By the way, Clang Armory offers a variety of signum discs:

http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/roman%2 ... %2001.html

Valete,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

How would the loops work? Tie the object to the pole? Seems plausible, but that square hole sure makes one think of a carriage bolt, doesn't it?

[Matthew Amt]

Oh, sorry, no! It's a metal loop, a piece of tube or a band formed into a tube that slides onto the pole. Actually, if you just solder on the middle of a band, you can wrap the ends around the pole and overlap them, meaning you don't have to worry about matching tube size to pole, or scraping the heck out of your (presumably nicely painted) pole to get the discs in place. Then just still a little nail or two through the overlap.

Of course, the *third* time the crescent on our signum popped off its band, I just nailed the darn thing to the pole... Make sure you do a GOOD soldering job!

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks. I was thinking you'd meant loops like the "croissant roll" phalera a few posts back. I'm guessing that would mean tie strings or something...but that doesn't sound secure if there's any bumping or thumping of the standard.

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Looking at these coins; apart from a few exceptions, almost all coins show signa with 3 phalerae. Is this only because it's impossible to show 7 phalerae on a coin, because it's "just nicer", or could it mean something?
http://www.romancoins.info/Legionary-Coins.html

[M. Demetrius]

That's a sensible conclusion, in my opinion, that it's just a lack of space. To make a firm case, we would have to see three phalerae on all grave stele, all sculpture, etc., and we simply don't. There seems to be some reason that they used different numbers. Nobody so far has come up with an answer for why or what they meant.

I heard from someone a while back that there was an existing disc found. All I remember about it (as I wasn't particularly interested at that time in making any) was that it was round, had a raised "doughnut" around the outer edge and a square hole in the center. Does anyone have any information on that find? Size? Other dimensions?