\'Phrygian\' helmet

[immortal]

Great photos guys, there are a couple I have not seen before. I have always liked the early Boeotian helmet Paul has posted. The texture on the last woolen hat is excellent!
Have any vases been 100% positively identified as depicting Spartans?
The wreaths are also quite interesting. of course with the exception of the physical finds we have not idea if they are all portraying metallic helmets.

[hoplite14gr]

The evidence for pilos helmet point after 430 B.C.

Earlier evidence from Thebes suggest corinthian adn Chalckidic
Some argue that the perfume vase is not Theban but the lid is.

See attachments:

[immortal]

I just found this in my reference folder, its from the British museum but I have not noted the date.
It looks to me lit has a very pronounced crown and what appears to be a face mask as seen on later models, would others agree?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is clearly another "thracian" helmet. Those helmets appear in the early-middle fifth century and they are becoming exceedingly frequent in art. However none has been found. I think the thracian helmets that have been found are from the 4th century. The cheek pieces are preserved in one of the two i have seen and they are long and pointy,resembling those of the frygian helmet,but less decorative and probably a bit longer. They share the protection that reached under the eyes and around the nose,though. Just by the style i would roughly date the vase you posted around 460-440 bc. Just my estimation though.
Khaire
Giannis

[immortal]

Hi Giannis, yes I realise this is another Thracian style helmet, I was just interested that it may show the evolution int the Phrygian style.
I didn't think the cheek pieces look like the usual sharp angled ones. This one has a rounded piece going into the nose and extends around the chin.

[Paullus Scipio]

I would agree with Giannis' estimate that this style of helmet dates from the second quarter of the 5 C BC. The cheekpieces indeed look as if they are a step in the evolution to 'Bearded Phrygian' type. However, here were undoubtedly many variations in cheek-pieces.

It is incorrect that none have been found, Connolly illustrated a low-combed early 5C example, now in the British museum, in his books, and here is an even earlier example....

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,this is one of the two helmets i reffered to in the previous post,with the long cheek guards. I am away from home and don't have my books close,but as far as i can remember,Connolly's ia early fourth century(the lowest helmet in the tree of evolution he has in his book) and i have seen photos of a thracian helmet without cheek guards that is in the BM. That one is displayed with a muscled cuirass and a pair of greaves that look too 4th centurish,so i asumed the helmet was too.
Are you sure the helmet you have posted is so early? Can you recheck and confirm that it isn't fourth century?
Khaire
Giannis

[immortal]

The Thracian with the cheek pieces definately existed in the 5th century. Peter Connolly shows a vase painting in his book which shows a hoplite wearing this style of helmet and a bronze cuirass which he dates to 460 BC.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Of course,i myself dated the one you posted in mid 5th century. I'm saying that actual helmets haven't been found from that time.
The vase from which Connolly made his drawing is an amazing vase in Agrigento museum,which has at least two,if not more depictions of the Thracian helmet.
I'm almost sure however that the earliest actual helmet found is no later than early 4th century.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry, Giannis, but there are a number of actual examples dated second quarter of the 5 C !! If you look at Connolly's 'timelines' in his evolution diagram, you'll see each band gets bigger ( because there are more examples) and his latest examples, just below the "500 BC" line are all early 5 C BC examples, with the latest being the Thracian - c. 460 BC.

Here is another photo of a 5C BC example, a photo I took in the British museum last year of a Thracian helmet clearly dedicated as a trophy, marked 'Hiaron'/ sacred....if you read the card, you'll see it is dated 450-400 BC and was found at Lake Copais in Boeotia. It would be tempting to associate this find with the nearby battle of Coronea, fought in 447 BC, when the Boeotian league led by Thebes defeated the Athenians.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,i'm happy to learn that this is supposedly a fifth century helmet.
Here is Connoly's painting, i thought that the distance between the helmets and their relative position indicates about the part of the century it is dated. So if we continue separating the space with the horizontal lines in the same distance,that Thracian helmet becomes fourth century. I didn't notice that the space between the pannels become bigger! Also the fact that connolly in the same book paints Alexandrian soldiers wearing it, pushed me towards that assumption. However i suppose you meant fourth quarter of the fifth century,not second. The other helmet you posted,is it also fifth century?

Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis, the next 'line' on Connolly's evolution chart should read '450 BC'. Do you see it? No?.....the last group of helmets are all pre-450 BC !

And yes, I did mean "second quarter of the 5 C BC" i.e. 475-450 BC. The previous helmet I posted is dated to that period.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You are right about the chart.
Great to know these helmets date to the same period as their most freqent representation in pottery. I wonder then why they have been connected so much by modern ilustrators with phalangites...perhaps because of their evident resemblance to the phrygian helmet. And also because some examples might actually date to the late fourth century.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

I wonder then why they have been connected so much by modern ilustrators with phalangites...perhaps because of their evident resemblance to the phrygian helmet. And also because some examples might actually date to the late fourth century.

In Connolly's original "Greek Armies" book he correctly showed 4 C BC types of helmet on p.60 (Phrygian, Thraco-Attic, Chalcidian and Pilos). He also showed the 2 C BC evolved type of Thracian helmet, often called 'Antigonid' ( no.5 on P.60). In his 'Battle of Hydaspes' illustration he showed these four, plus the 'combed' and 'combless' 5 C Thracian types ! ( which MAY have still been around). He also showed an Italian Thraco-Attic type (!!).

On his 'Battle of Pydna illustration he showed the same 5 C BC 'combed' and 'combless 5 C Thracian types, though these would almost certainly not be worn in the 2 C BC, but rather the evolved 'Antigonid/Thracian' type.

One should remeber that thes illustrations date from the 1970's however, when much less information was available......

Judging by iconography, the Phrygian and Pilos types were the most common types worn by Alexander's infantry....

[MeinPanzer]

He also showed the 2 C BC evolved type of Thracian helmet, often called 'Antigonid' ( no.5 on P.60).

Paul, just a note, but this helmet's heyday was in the 3rd c. BC. The Prodromi, Melos, Kerch, Lake Ochrida, Gavani, and Tarentum examples all date to this century, and the only handful of late examples date to the early 2nd c. BC.