Hello,
Just wondering if anyone can help me. Im looking for the earliest reliably dated find/representation of the Phrygian style helmet. The earliest I have so far is an Athenian stele dated to 394 B.C.
While on the subject of helmets... where does the idea that Theban hoplites wore the 'Boeotian' style helmet come from? Are there any primary sources to back this up?
Thanks for any help!
Quote:While on the subject of helmets... where does the idea that Theban hoplites wore the 'Boeotian' style helmet come from? Are there any primary sources to back this up?
Thanks for any help!
I can't help you on the first one, but on the second, a reference is made to the Plataeans depicted in the painting of the battle of Marathon from the Stoa Poikile in Demosthenes 59.94 which states that they wore Boeotian helmets. However, whether what the ancients called the Boeotian helmet can be taken as the helmet that we call Boeotian today is not entirely certain, see E. Jarva, "In search of Xenophon’s ideal helmet. An alternative view of the kranos boiotiourges," in Faravid 15 (1991): 33-81.
If I recall correctly, Boeotian stelai show piloi being worn by hoplites.
Quote:If I recall correctly, Boeotian stelai show piloi being worn by hoplites.
Thanks for the information,This is what I seem to recall.
I thought the quote was that they carried the Boeotian shield, but I may be mistaken!
Am I correct that the Stoa Poikile was created during the Peleponesian war?
So, the assumption that
all Thebans wore the boeotian helmet is pretty baseless really.
Quote:So, the assumption that all Thebans wore the boeotian helmet is pretty baseless really.
The assumption that any city-state's Hoplite force, or any Hoplite force, wore one style of helmet is pretty baseless - Boeotians didn't all wear ;Boeotian' types, though perhaps it was common among them, and Spartans didn't all wear 'Piloi'- even the Romans never achieved uniformity in this regard, though in the middle and late Republic eras, they may have come close with the very widespread use of the 'Montefortino' helmet.......
As to the 'Phrygian' helmet, much depends on how you define it - helmets with a slightly swept forward 'comb', and long cheek-pieces, commonly called 'Thracian' types existed circa 460 B.C. Over time, the 'comb' became more pronounced, and the cheek-pieces smaller until you have the typical 'Phrygian' type of the second half of the fourth century... and were evidently wide-spread at that time, examples c. 350 BC coming from South Italian tombs.
Quote: thought the quote was that they carried the Boeotian shield, but I may be mistaken!
They certainly did not all carry the "boeotian" shield. This shield may never have existed outside of art, it being a later rendering of the single-center grip Dipylon. Seach on here for a long thread on the boetian that includes an excellent reconstruction.
Quote:Am I correct that the Stoa Poikile was created during the Peleponesian war?
I have a few images of boeotian stelai of this period, but I did not savew them with the date. I have a feeling they are early 4th c.
PMBardunias: Im not saying that they all carried the Boeotian shield.. Im talking about the quote from Demosthenes. All the 'Plataeans' on the Stoa Poikile are wearing Pilos and carry Boeotian shields.
Im not refering to all Theban steles, but the Stoa Poikile in particular.
On a similar vein, is the belief that all Spartans wore the Pilos just based on the famous quote from Thucydides?
Paul: Thanks for the information. Im particularly thinking about the form of 'Phrygian' more associated with the Macedonian army. I have noticed the pronounced crest on much earlier 'Thracian' styles. Im just curious as to when it is thought it evolved into this form.
Quote:PMBardunias: Im not saying that they all carried the Boeotian shield.. Im talking about the quote from Demosthenes. All the 'Plataeans' on the Stoa Poikile are wearing Pilos and carry Boeotian shields.
Im not refering to all Theban steles, but the Stoa Poikile in particular.
No. Demosthenes says "hoi tas kunas tas Boiotias echontes," so he's referring to helmets.
Quote:On a similar vein, is the belief that all Spartans wore the Pilos just based on the famous quote from Thucydides?
Also on the fact that there are several depictions of Spartans wearing the pilos, and that later writing commonly refers to the pilos (whether helmet or cap) as Laconic.
Quote:immortal:8hrw7hxf Wrote:PMBardunias: Im not saying that they all carried the Boeotian shield.. Im talking about the quote from Demosthenes. All the 'Plataeans' on the Stoa Poikile are wearing Pilos and carry Boeotian shields.
Im not refering to all Theban steles, but the Stoa Poikile in particular.
No. Demosthenes says "hoi tas kunas tas Boiotias echontes," so he's referring to helmets.
Quote:On a similar vein, is the belief that all Spartans wore the Pilos just based on the famous quote from Thucydides?
Also on the fact that there are several depictions of Spartans wearing the pilos, and that later writing commonly refers to the pilos (whether shield or cap) as Laconic.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, it has helped a lot.
Quote:Am I correct that the Stoa Poikile was created during the Peleponesian war?
The 'Stoa Poikile' ( Painted porch) is believed to have been built andfirst so decorated around 460 BC.It was one of the first major buildings built following the Persian Wars, and Xerxes destruction of the city, some 20 odd years before. By the 2 C AD, when Pausanias described it, there were at least four major paintings - an Amazonomachy, the Fall of Troy, the battle of Marathon, and the battle of Oenoe ( when Athens first defeated Sparta on land). Fragments of painted stone, with some colours still quite bright, and believed to come from this stoa were excavated 1949-1970's. steps and foundations were excavated in 1981 and the building formally identified.
Incidently, the early 'Boeotian' helmet is not the type we usually associate the name with - i.e. the type referred to by Xenophon as good for cavalry use, and associated with Macedonian cavalry ( including the depiction in the Alexander mosaic !!), but a simpler type, similar to a 'pilos' helmet - but quite distinct from it - and like it, deriving it's shape from a locally worn cap.
Here are couple more stelai and an image of an early Boeotian (first image):
Beat me to it!.....I was looking for that first image to post !
One can see that the 'early Boeotian' differed from the 'Pilos' in that the latter is very conical, and has a steep, almost vertical, rim whilst the 'early Boeotian' is less conical, rounder, and has a more flared out rim, but that both are variations on local caps is plain to see.....
Quote:Beat me to it!.....
Slowpoke! I happened upon these two images online recently. Assuming they are authentic, the "Macedonian" helm, first image, seems to be an evolution of the Pilos that converges back on the old-style boeotian.
Also, in the second image, there is a pilos with an out-turned rim. Rims such as this and even almost perpendicular are seen on vases, a few I have seen depicting Spartans.
There are many of these 'piloi' on auction sites from Greece, Macedonia/hellenistic and Italian - all of which appear to be descended/exactly similar to the 'Laconian' Pilos.
Attached is another example of the early 'Boeotian helmet, and 'psiloi' stonethrower wearing the shaggy skin cap it was derived from.....
I love this pilos, cap not helmet, because of the texture: