Sassanian - Roman Saddle

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Ardeshir i agree with the last statement. PERFECT impression !! kataphraktoi are needed here in Europe.

Also VERY VERY NICE to see you using the RIGHT SIZE horse for the era, also for Roman it would pe perfect. Here in Europe we see too many cavalrymen who use horses which are absolutely too large.

M.VIB.M.

[John Conyard]

A mounting strap was mentioned back in <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=27113&start=40">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=27113&start=40<!-- l

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cheers John.

[SassanianPersian]

Hello everyone and thank you for the wonderful compliments. I wish I was in Europe as well. hahaha Now that they charge for baggages on planes, hahaha, it might even be more expensive to bring the armor than to just put it on and swim my horses over. haha. Regarding the mounting strap, yes I saw that as well. I have always thought that was very interesting. What is interesting to me about it is that it says clearly, that if there was a mounting strap, on a spear, it opens the door to say that other variations of such straps are available. A mounting strap on a saddle, or used with a saddle not with a spear makes more sense to me in that it shows the natural evolution to a stirrup, a permanent aid strap. I think all of the impressions I see of cavalry out of Europe are amazing and I am envious, wish I was there with you guys. I have only seen one other Cataphract impression and it was pretty awesome. Just glad to see that it was out there. I have never seen one like the Sassanids though. I think the Roman guys are doing an amazing job, absolutely amazing job. I just want to do my part and add to it by representing a Persian.

Anyway, great to hear from everyone and to be a part of you guys. Hopefully someday I will meet and see some of you guys.

Ardeshir

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Its great to see other impressions from the periods. Imagine being able to re-enact things like the seige of Dura Europus and more.....(any excuse to get some where sunny lol)

[SassanianPersian]

That would be fantastic. Well, it is pretty damn sunny here in Southern California my friend.

Ardeshir

[SassanianPersian]

By the way, for everyone on here who has horses. I own a high end horse tack company. Polo bridles, Dressage Bridles, English Bridles, Jumper Bridles, Hunter Bridles, Hunt Bridles, Western Bridles, breastplates, martingales, whatever you need. Anyone on Roman Army Talk that has a horse and needs equipment, if you order from my website, put a note in the comments box and I will automatically discount it 10% for you as long as you are a confirmed member of this website. So please just put a note in the comments box, Please specify your name from RAT and I will apply the discount for anybody on here. A gift from the Persian to all of you.

Ardeshir Radpour
www.tackzone.com

[Crispvs]

Regarding the copper-alloy plates on Roman saddles, I agree that they were attached to the outside of the leather rather than to the tree, as they feature rows of holes along their edges to facilitate stitching rather than just the few holes which would be required to nail tham to a tree.

Crispvs

[John Conyard]

Good morning,

Sorry I have been meaning to post for some time but life gets in the way.

Ardeshir, the weight of your saddle corresponds to the Connolly reproductions, and your design follows his. We use two Connolly saddles and his wooden frames, and yours, are very well made. Our lighter saddles have had the rear horns break due to the trees not being strong enough. Although in truth these saddles do take a real hammering. I fear I do not rate the large heavy pad saddle concept.

When I see pictures of a Sassanian, or an Achaemenid Persian for that matter, I get a horrible urge to run to the equipment room and enter into combat. Please understand this is my conditioning and I will not allow it to interfere with our discussions.

I think the reconstruction of four-horned saddles has moved on since the Connolly reconstructions, for better or for worse it is hard to tell. I’ll PM you with some useful sources. For example the possibility that the leather cover could easily be detached from the frame. A design perhaps supported by the Sassanian gilded silver rhyton in the Museum of Art in Cleveland, although this annoying only clearly shows two horns. I am certainly happy to use split girths for extra stability on some saddles, and surcingles.

I suspect you may already have read Bishop’s Cavalry Equipment of the Roman Army in the First Century A.D. Originally published in Coulston, J.C. (ed.) 1988: Military Equipment and the Identity of Roman Soldiers. Proceedings of the Fourth Roman Military Equipment Conference, BAR International Series3 9 4, Oxford

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12892006/Cava ... Century-AD

To quote: “Peter Connolly has reconstructed a Celto-Roman saddle of the first century A.D., based upon the available evidence. This was mainly archaeological (leather saddle covers and copper alloy 'saddle horns'), but was supported by sculptural evidence (taken from tombstones and the St.Rémy mausoleum). The efficacy of this reconstructed saddle was demonstrated in its actual experimental use.
Connolly suggested that the saddle pommels were wooden and that the holes around the edge of some of the saddle horns were for nailing these objects to the pommels. These horns, which were covered with leather, cannot have been attached to the outside of the saddle, since nail holes are not found on surviving leather fragments. Connolly felt that the balance of evidence lay in favour of their being used to shape the pommel on the inside, but the peripheral holes, if indeed used for nailing, would imply that the wooden pommels themselves would have been shaped, thus rendering the horns unnecessary. It might be argued that they were a form of protection for the pommels, protecting thee against damage in battle or mishandling when the saddle was removed from the horse.
However, an alternative explanation for the copper alloy horns may be that the pommels were not wholly wooden. If we accept that the horns were intended to shape the pommels, then it is conceivable that some form of padding was used to form them. A fabric cover, stuffed with horsehair, would be fairly rigid (comparison with recent upholstery techniques confirms this), yet easier to produce than carved wooden pommels; if the horns were then stitched to the outside, these would not only give the pommels the desired shape, but also add an extra degree of rigidity. It is also possible that such padded pommels had a simple wooden core, which would then be attached to the tree, but this would not seem to be essential.
The set of horns from Pit XXII at Newstead include two names on one of the objects, which also has a different numeral punched in it to the others. It is conceivable that one pommel on Senecio's saddle (number XII) had to be replaced with one from Cresces' (number XV); Senecio scratched his name inside, but in the nominative case, not the genitive, as he had done in the other three.
The similarity between these two different rear horns and their implied interchangeability suggests that saddlers used the same basic shape of horn for each saddle they made.”
Of course a well made tree would not need such copper alloy stiffeners. Mounted externally they would help protect the leather from wear, rather than enemy action. The holes in them could allow them to be nailed or sewn to the leather, or the wooden frame. Often as members of RAT we like definite assertions, but must allow that such plates could be used to protect the saddle AND aid the rigidity of the frame. It would be good to see a leather saddle cover with evidence of how the copper alloy plates were mounted.
In the same way when I referred to the four horn as a Romano-Celtic saddle I meant no slur on the Sassanians, it is just force of habit. I know very little about the Sassanians and would like to know more. I am particularly interested in the move to the steppe saddle. I can see Sassanian riders using a high front cantle and no corresponding rear cantle. I am not aware of the use of horns and cantle combined. I did a quick search for Narseh but no illustrations of horse harness were forthcoming. A figure on a rock carving of Hormizd may show something along the lines of a front horn and rear cantle, but iconography is always tricky to interpret. I would be interested in any illustrations showing the transition from four horn to steppe saddle.
Mounting straps are an old idea, but I am always nervous about putting the frame and horns under undue strain. The strap on the spear is an interesting concept but I have yet to try it seriously.
If you ever want to experience Yorkshire’s occasionally blazing blue skies you are welcome to come and stay with me. But I fear compared to California Yorkshire may be wet muddy and cold. But the welcome would be warm.