New evidence for annihilation of Ninth Legion in Britain?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Conal,

Maybe there is some tide of academic opinion returning to a view that the British were more independent (culturally and politically) under Roman rule - a view that I do not share, btw - but so far I have not seen any evidence of any turning academic tide when it comes to the descruction of VIIII Hispana on British soil. Much less that 'strong evidence' quoted in that book!

Robert
Where is this tide ... I wouldn't mind a few references please as I like to read all theories, even the off the wall ones?
Regards
Conal

For instance in the current books by Stuart Laycock. Apparently his writing were not greated with a wall of scepticism, but with approval from several historian (which he wrote about in our correspondence). I'm not totally of that opinion: I can't, for instance, see the British cities being guarded by armed civilians or otherwise non-military, during the late 4th century. But maybe I'm missing something.

[PhilusEstilius]

The VIIII Legion were not only making tiles at other places they were also making them on the 255 line frontier discovered by the late Raymond Selkirk.
There are such tiles in Tullie House Museum in Cumbria that came from kilns of the period of Trajan belonging to the VIIII Legion operating on this frontier.

[D B Campbell]

For instance in the current books by Stuart Laycock.

I see our old friend Miles Russell has popped up in this connection, too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/UnRoman-Britain-Stuart-Laycock/dp/0752455664

Apparently his writings were not greeted with a wall of scepticism, but with approval from several historians (which he wrote about in our correspondence).

I have not seen any "scholarly" reviews; nor can I find any (quick search only). Surely his work has not been ignored by his academic colleagues?

[Conal]

For instance in the current books by Stuart Laycock. Apparently his writing were not greated with a wall of scepticism, but with approval from several historian (which he wrote about in our correspondence). I'm not totally of that opinion: I can't, for instance, see the British cities being guarded by armed civilians or otherwise non-military, during the late 4th century. But maybe I'm missing something.

Are you refering to his forthcoming UnRoman Britain or his earlier ones, Britannia - The Failed State: Tribal Conflict and the End of Roman Britain and Warlords: The Struggle for Power in Post-Roman Britain .. the latter two are unread on my to-read shelf a the moment?

I'm sure there was a thread on here about some guy who was harping about a conspiracy of silence about the extent of British kingship during Roman rule, I've traweled but can't track it down.

[Paullus Scipio]

The VIIII Legion were not only making tiles at other places they were also making them on the 255 line frontier discovered by the late Raymond Selkirk.
There are such tiles in Tullie House Museum in Cumbria that came from kilns of the period of Trajan belonging to the VIIII Legion operating on this frontier.

....I'm surprised no-one has commented on this as it would seem to be pretty conclusive evidence.......

[Robert Vermaat]

For instance in the current books by Stuart Laycock.

Are you referring to his forthcoming UnRoman Britain or his earlier ones, Britannia - The Failed State: Tribal Conflict and the End of Roman Britain and Warlords: The Struggle for Power in Post-Roman Britain .. the latter two are unread on my to-read shelf a the moment?
I'm sure there was a thread on here about some guy who was harping about a conspiracy of silence about the extent of British kingship during Roman rule, I've traweled but can't track it down.

All three of them I think, but mostly his first one , 'Britannia'.
As to that conspiracy thread, best leave it there... :?

I see our old friend Miles Russell has popped up in this connection, too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/UnRoman-Britain-Stuart-Laycock/dp/0752455664

I can't say anything about this one, it's the first he didn't let me read before publication.. But I've been a bit critical of certain parts in his earlier books, so that may explain it. :wink: The thing is, Stuart (and Miles too I think) propose that Britain was somehow different from other parts of the empire, and that what we think went for other provinces, somehow was different in Britain. For instance, Stuart proposed that the former British tribes somehow retained their identity throughout the Roman occupation, and that they had inner-provincial tribal border conflicts during that period. Also, Stuart claimed that on the grounds of archaeological evidence (military buckles) he could show that the civitates had begun to re-arm during the later 4th century, with or without the acquiesce of Roman authorities. To me, such conclusions go to far for me on the available evidence. How could any Roman authority (except when in a time of civil war or similar period of low effectiveness) allow that two civitates raided each others territory? I mean, during the 2nd and 3rd centuries? Unthinkable. Laycock and Miles want to show, I think, how that was possible in that upcoming book. I just hope that it’s not going to be about Geoffrey of Monmouth and his ‘British kings’ all over again..

[PhilusEstilius]

Paul.
This is an interesting piece of information about tiles being made by the Ninth Legion on this earlier frontier, in fact there were 25 pottery and tile kilns found near Scalesceugh Hall in Cumbria. These workshops were found alongside a north / south Roman road which is now the modern A6 road leading to Carlisle, there were not only two tiles with Leg VIIII stamped on them but also a one with Leg XX V V so it looks like these two Legions had guys working together along this Trajanic line.

There is also a well known Roman fort just about a mile to the west at a little village named Wreay and the frontier continues at 255 degrees towards Maryport on the Cumbrian coast. It has also been a well known fact for many years now that a Roman road leaves Maryport on a heading of 75 degrees.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul.
This is an interesting piece of information about tiles being made by the Ninth Legion on this earlier frontier, in fact there were 25 pottery and tile kilns found near Scalesceugh Hall in Cumbria. These workshops were found alongside a north / south Roman road which is now the modern A6 road leading to Carlisle, there were not only two tiles with Leg VIIII stamped on them but also a one with Leg XX V V so it looks like these two Legions had guys working together along this Trajanic line.

There is also a well known Roman fort just about a mile to the west at a little village named Wreay and the frontier continues at 255 degrees towards Maryport on the Cumbrian coast. It has also been a well known fact for many years now that a Roman road leaves Maryport on a heading of 75 degrees.

Many thanks for expanding on this, Brian. I have followed your postings with regard to the late Raymond Selkirk's work with much interest - it is a pity it is not more widely known. As mentioned earlier, I was surprised this information was not commented on, since together with the tiles from Nijmegen,it provides pretty conclusive evidence of continuity over the period of the alleged disappearance, theories about 'vexillations' notwithstanding - the subject matter of this thread ! 8)

[ParthianBow]

All will be revealed in Ancient Warfare IV.5 (Oct/Nov, 2010) ... well, almost all (pressure of space!) :wink:

Sock it to them, Duncan! Congratulations on a well-written, cogently argued and excellent article. Please can you now go to:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3B4SCOU ... hisHelpful

and persuade them that they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've done my best, but some of those who've posted just want to believe the myth... :roll: :evil:

[D B Campbell]

Sock it to them, Duncan! Congratulations on a well-written, cogently argued and excellent article.

Just doing my job, Ben. :wink: But it's nice to be appreciated -- thanks!

[Ross Cowan]

A well-written, cogently argued and excellent article.

Yes, Duncan's article is excellent -- a very welcome antidote to all the factoids about the disappearance of the legion. It prompted me to revise my old Ninth Legion page:

[url:1f7kak42]http://ninthlegion.wordpress.com/ninth-legion/[/url]

Cheers,

R

[Jona Lendering]

Sock it to them, Duncan! Congratulations on a well-written, cogently argued and excellent article.

Just doing my job, Ben. :wink: But it's nice to be appreciated -- thanks!

Yes, it is excellent.

[Ron Andrea]

Sock it to them, Duncan! Congratulations on a well-written, cogently argued and excellent article.

Just doing my job, Ben. :wink: But it's nice to be appreciated -- thanks!

Well done.

[Robert Vermaat]

Someone on the Rosemary Sutcliff website has been making claims that the story about Legio VIIII Hispana was right after all.. I've left a counter-post.

[Crispvs]

I can't see your post Robert.

Crispvs