The light armed cohorts discussion and evidence

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

To be honest I think that the effect of seeing thousands of pila flying towards you at the same time through the air and then going straight through your shields, causing numerous casualties and causing many to have to throw away their shields immediately prior to hand to hand engagement, would have a pretty severe affect on morale at a crucial moment in an engagement.

Crispvs

Out of interest is there any documented case of the pila stopping a charge ?

Actually has there ever been any proper analysis of the sources to try and work out the effect of the pilum on enemy in battle? Off the top of my head Makedonian phalanxes, Celtic warriors, etc. all get to close combat and, in some cases, cause the legiones real problems - so just how effective were pila in reality?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Can't recall offhand, but I'm sure Caesar mentions it in the battle against the Helvetii?
At least the pila volleys blunted the momentum of the charge.(Which was up hill)

[M. Demetrius]

I can't be sure about which Book:line either, but I recall that the pila pinned some of their shields together, making the attackers have to discard their shields. That can't have helped them at all in the final combat stage.

[Crispvs]

I think you will find it in Bello Gallica, Book 1, chapter 25.

Crispvs

[Tim Edwards]

These spherical expansions have actually been found on surviving pila from Ljubljanica in Slovenia!

See M Feugere 'Weapons of the Romans' pp129.

I have only seen rough line drawings so far, but they look like iron expansions of the socketed shaft type. One find looks like the spherical expansion is intact, though what material this is, is difficult to ascertain. Until I get better images, I favour Crispus' interpretation that these expansions would have been wooden, in this case sandwiching an iron tang expansion.

At least one had a pierced centre, which I think would make practical sense as an extra point of anchorage to the shaft.

These spherical expansions are smaller than what appears to be shown on the Cancellaria reliefs, but neatly match the smaller size as shown on some of the Adamklisi metopes.

Hope this helps...

[M. Demetrius]

Aww, heck. Sounds like somebody is about to spoil another whole series of arguments. Hmmph. :roll:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I have seen a spherical shaped one to somewhere, but I don't think it was conclusive enough to rule out it being covered in something.
there was a groove in the wood IIRC, which would suit as an anchor. I personally don't think you can dismiss any theory untill you have conclusive proof, one way or the other.

[Tim Edwards]

Byron - I'd be keen to know what and where your 'something' and 'somewhere' is, sounds interesting!

I don't think the Ljubljanica finds are anywhere near conclusive, although I'd be interested to know if there are parallels elsewhere. If anything, we might end up asking more questions than we are answering by factoring them in.

Still, lets get some collect some evidence before theory - horse before cart!

The examples I am speaking of represent only a tiny proportion of the total assemblage of pilum variants from this area of Slovenia. I notice that Connolly seems thusfar to have missed these particular variants from his studies, though he has referenced some of the more typical types excavated.

[M. Demetrius]

I personally don't think you can dismiss any theory untill you have conclusive proof

There are quite a few who believe and behave this way, Byron, but all the rest just forge on ahead whether evidence supports them or not. Some will look at evidence, and say, "...well that only means they did it that time, so I'm going to continue to believe they ONLY did it that way that one time...." Not exactly scientific, eh?

[Paullus Scipio]

Yeah, wot he said..... Often all the evidence in the world won't change a person's beliefs or opinions - and that doesn't just apply to matters ancient, but is a general human characteristic.

In addition too, "conclusive" evidence is all too rare on such matters. Mind you, I would regard the find of an orange sized lead sphere with a cylindrical hole through it in a 1-2 C AD military context as pretty conclusive, and persuasive !! D lol:

I'm looking forward to learning more from Tim Edwards about those Slovenian examples....

[Tim Edwards]

Paul,
I'd like to learn more about them myself!
Until now, all I've seen is that figure in Feugere's book. This is commonly available and inexpensive, if you wish to see for yourself.
Unfortunately, Feugere's bibliography is very scant. I think the original source he is referencing is:

Nauportus (Vrhnika) by Jana Horvat, Marjeta Sasel Kos (1990)
Publisher: Slovenska akademija znanosti in umetnosti

Maybe someone with access to a University library can help? Any Slovenian RATers out there?!

Out of interest, other Ljubljanica pila are here:
http://av.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/53/AV_53_Horvat.pdf
but none with the obvious spherical expansions that Feugere shows...

[Paullus Scipio]

Thanks Tim....disappointing, though, that more information isn't to be had....I have Horvat's paper that you posted and went looking through it previously, wondering why I had missed reference to 'ball weights' when reading it, but didn't have any better luck re-reading it! :wink:

[Tim Edwards]

Here is the illustration:
[attachment=0:2kc00cxc]<!-- ia0 DSC02215.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:2kc00cxc]
From M.Feugère (trans.D.G.Smith) Weapons of the Romans, Tempus, Stroud 2002. p 129.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

OK Tim, I know they were on a thread on here a year or two ago. I'll give it ashot, but my searches on here tend to be abismal failures....

[Tim Edwards]

I think the find you are talking about his connected to this thread, but I can't find the image:
<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=18436&start=20&hilit=pilum+weight">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=18436&start=20&hilit=pilum+weight<!-- l

Other threads on practical reasoning:
<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11901&highlight=lead+weight+pilum">viewtopic.php?t=11901&highlight=lead+weight+pilum<!-- l
<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11739&hilit=pilum+weight&start=20">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11739&hilit=pilum+weight&start=20<!-- l

I think there has already been some excellent practical consideration in the posts above, but we still drastically lack evidence.

Interestingly, all surviving represantations of these 'weights' that I have seen come from Italy and Eastern Europe. If the phenomeon was localised to these regions it would explain why we are lacking for evidence from elsewhere.

I think its important we chase up the Ljubljanica finds. The Nauportus publication can be found in the following libraries:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/nauportus ... c/25082655

Now I know we have RAT members near London and Leiden...