Making a Gladius blade

[lyuv]

Hello all, newbe here.

My mind is set on making a Gladius. hispanic, mainz or something between (whichever will please my eye), and a diamond section.

My only option is stock reduction, as I have no forging facilities (or experience or any knoledge...).

ANY information or tips will be greatly appreciated. I did see this most excelent post: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22730">viewtopic.php?t=22730<!-- l . However, there is allways room for more. One point that bugs me is material thickness (at the spine). Also - does the blade slant directly from the spine to the very edge, or is there a secondary slant in the last few milimeters?

More will come as I progress (ie, get off my ass).

[jvrjenivs]

You already found the tutorial by one of the most experienced people in making Roman blades with stock removal. So, I would say most of it is in there. And if you encounter new problems, you can of course always put them in that topic or this one

Ow, and don't forget to put your real (first) name into your signature, as that's a forum rule

[brennivs - tony drake]

Lyuv thanks for your kind words. To answer your points D
Regards Brennivs

[Matt Lukes]

Really Tony? My information is that Roman swords, at least of the Mainz and Pompeii types, were really very thick- 8-9mm at the midline on average; or are you simply meaning 4-5mm is easiest for the stock removal method of shaping a blade (which one could hardly debate LOL)?

[brennivs - tony drake]

Matt I made my Mainz/Pompeii at that thickness at 9mm about 20 years ago, and even if you had arms like Arnie they are just too blade heavy. I also read the reports hence why I did this. When I finaly saw pics of the blades you soon see that the measurements are of coroded blades and the measurements are thus. The sword of Tiberus is 10mm and a sword from Dura is 14mm. Wrought Iron will corode in two ways it will scale, Iron hulled ships I worked on in the yards hit them with a hammer and half the ship is on the deck or the will laminate the carbonised layers are forced apart by the oxidising softer iron hence the blade becomes thicker. this is why the blades tend to show there profiles quite well as the blades dont expand much at there width. Now that is not to say that blades could not be thicker than 5mm but if you look at the non ferrous fittings that gives you an idea of the blade thickneses. again very rare the give the hole size for the tang ect on the hand gaurd plate. Also I have a pommel nut which is just under 5mm thick hole for the tang.

To give you an idea of weight difference I have a Mainz and a Fullum in a picture.

The Mainz sword weighs 2lb7oz and is 5mm thick, against the Fullum 3lb 3oz at 9mm thick as you can see the difference in size, How heavy would the Mainz be at the same thickness as the Fullum? (sorry about the pic). If you look at swords through history it is very rare you find a thick bladed sword and most tend to hover around the 5mm or less. Sorry for the late reply had probs uploading pics :lol:
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

I just had a flick through Miks and side with Tony on the blade thickness. Swords that have been well preserved do not show a thickness over 6 mm, they are more often near 5 and sometimes as thin as 4, although these latter do show a lot of corrosion. So I would guess a thickness of 5 mm at the height of the cross section of the rib would be a good reproduction.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A rule of thumb for steel corrossion is 5mm rust = 1mm steel. Not sure how that equates with iron though

[brennivs - tony drake]

Robert thanks for that since I dont have Miks book cry: Byron I would say it is slightly more as some of the Dura blade have more than doubled in thickness ranging from 10mm - 16mm but also it depends on what soil , water ect they were deposited in. One of the Ring swords I made has a blade length of 32" x 5mm thick and too me was blade heavy so it needs to be made thinner to balance out but you live and learn lol: :lol: I hope Lyuv gets back to the topic and get him of to a good start
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Salve Tony! You're welcome! If you have specific questions on blades and dimensions, just PM me and I can look things up for you. I do respect copyright, but am always willing to share info on individual basis. I much admire your workmanship! Working on a few spatha blades and two "gladiator" short sword presently, in between the stuff I am making Christian for his project. Wicked lanceheads and nifty javelins, the forging is fun but the grinding isn't.
Is there any good data on the way Romans would have finished their swords? Presently, my theory is large diameter water- or slavepowered grindstone, files to smooth down and a finish with fine stone (pumice and rooftiles). Any thought by all most welcome! And still on topic ....

[brennivs - tony drake]

Thanks Robert D
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Yep, most curious as to how they really did it ....

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Funny that the Albions seem so light and appear to be close to 10mm thick.
I think one of the sword smiths involved was on here not long ago, perhaps he has some detailed info on the swords they used for their
research.

[lyuv]

Hi again to all,

Untipically, I did get off my ass, and made the sword. The blade is waisted, 60mm wide, 50cm long and 5mm thick at the spine (all along the blade). All this gave a 950gr sword, including the all wooden hilt. A bit heavier than I was hopping for, so 5mm is NOT too thin. However, the metal close to the edge in the wider parts of the sword is quite thin, so I think a 4mm would not be suitable for a diamond cross section.

I planned on picturing the whole making proccess, but once I managed to get the steel, I was so eager to get going, that I neglected my duties to society (beside, I just a lazy bum...).

Pressently, there are minor finishing tasks: Get a bone to replace the wood grip, finish the wood parts and furnish a brass guard plate. But all this is on hold untill I find a way to treat the steel. At first I thought of building my own charcoal furnace, which is a MAJOR pain. But I accidentaly met a blacksmith who may let me access to his workshop (cross fingers).

One HUGE dissapointment is the surface finish. I just couldnt avoid some deep grinding marks. and the more I tried smoothing the area, more and more metal was lost, untill I ate my way through the edge. this forced me to narrow the blade and compromiss the beauty of the general shape. It also resulted in a surface that is somewhat wavy and scored, and will never look sleek and "professional". See in the picture how the top edge curves nicely (at the widest area near the tip), while the lower has a sharper turn.

This is my first blade and my first metal work of the kind, but I did have hopes for better results, especially since I wont be making another gladius (too many projects and too impatient a wife...)

Note that the hilt is not seated all the way, hence the visible weld of the tang to the blade (steel is available here only at 50cm long slabs).

When it's all done I"ll post some more pictures.

[M. Demetrius]

I'm a neophyte blacksmith, but I'd think a combination of grinding and forging can help that rounding off-problem, if you should want to make another one of these days...the hammering compacts and spreads the metal, of course, so you have to grind less off.

Having said that, though, this is a very nice looking blade. I'd be quite proud if I were the maker of it, for sure. Double-Plus-Good Job! :!:

[Robert]

Hi Yuv,

Good first attempt. One word of advice, lose that triangular area near the hilt. No Roman sword I have ever come across (in Miks grand book of swords) has one. Just take it apart and grind/sand it away, which should also give you a chance to smoothen that welded bit. I would suggest you shorten the sword slightly to do away with the weld being so prominent. On grindmarks, you probably got a bit impatient. When doing the rough grinding, leave enough of the initial shape to then use a flat belt sander to create the final plane of the blade. The how-to post by Tony/Brennivs shows that as well. There is Sheffield saying which goes: "If a good blade you will win, then forge thick and grind thin. It is a bit of a pain, I know, I forge blades, but there is so much truth there.