Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Certainly looks to be a doubler, again. Many thanks Mr. Cowan!

[Marcus Iulius Chattus]

Yeah, it seems really to be a doubler.

@ Mike
Thanks for the Link.

@ Magnus
I´ve get this book as a gift from my new girlfriend. She found it during a short-time-trip in the Colosseum-bookshop. I was really happy to get this book from her, but when i saw the price, i was totally shocked, 80€ hock: . The book is ok, but it isn´t worth that high prize! For me, the highlights are, as always, Mr. Sumners Colour-Plates.

[Paullus Scipio]

Byron

I think that I also see what you mention there appears to be one at page four however that is on Squamata, but then at page five there looks to be one on Hamata maybe more checks might confirm this.

...The figure on P.4 is as you rightly say wearing 'squamata' which appears to/MAY have one(!) shoulder piece of Greek style, which if it is, is the 'wrong' way around ( one would expect the cutout to be to the outside) and so it may be something else, though extra defence on the 'unshielded' side, to go with the 'manica' might be expected. This 'shoulder-piece' is certainly not a mail doubler. ( see attached)

This rather enigmatic figure taking a prisoner may be a centurion, for there are faint traces of what may be a transverse crest ( or simply damage! ) and perhaps a greave, and then again perhaps not.....

The figure on P.5 has I believe been discussed before here on RAT, and as can be seen on the close-ups on P.5 of the site referred to above, does not have a 'doubler' and what is sometimes taken for one is in fact the line of his 'pteryges' protruding from armpit......

Ross Cowan wrote:

and my belief that durable equipment could remain in service for decades, hence the later second century setting. Entirely speculative on my part, of course.

...whilst it is true that there are no surviving iconographic depictions after the reign of Trajan of 'doublers', Ross is almost certainly correct in saying that in Imperial times durable equipment could stay in service for decades etc. An example of longevity that springs to mind is an Apulo-Corinthian helmet found in a tomb. On stylistic grounds, this was of a late fifth/early fourth C BC style, but actual dating of other grave goods came up with a late 3 C BC date for the burial. The helmet had apparently been in use for around 100 years.

However, on the ivory piece from Ephesus, the rather narrow 'shoulder pieces' of Greek style do not seem to be mail 'doublers' , for they are not depicted the same 'pattern'/material as the mail shirt and seem to be of a different material, and there is no sign of the typical 'breast-hook' to hold a mail 'doubler' together....

[Paullus Scipio]

No kidding. A lot of what has been posted here on RAT about what D'Amato has written has completely turned me off of purchasing his book.

....the cover did that for me, interpreting as it does the funeral relief of Gaius Valerius Crispus, Legio VIII, first half of 1 st C AD as wearing leather body armour and leather 'braccae'/ breeches....this interpretation takes us back to the fifties, and pre- Russell - Robinson, who effectively debunked such ideas, pointing out for example that armour depicted as coming over the shoulder cap could not be leather, since if it were thick enough to function as armour, it would be too stiff to allow the raising of the arm ! ( see cover of 'Ancient Warfare' Vol II Issue 4 Aug/Sept 2008 for an example of this rather impossible interpretation of the body armour of Facilis from his 1st C AD tomb at Colchester). Russell-Robinson pointed out that it was more likely mail, painted onto the relatively smoothly carved torso.

[PhilusEstilius]

Paul.

I have had another more concentrated look at those numbers 4 and 5 pics' and I have indeed to agree with you, with a quick look at the Hamata one it becomes all to easy to miss that reversal thing.
Then on the pic' 5 as you say the Pteruges tend to mislead as well as the baldric strap of his sword no shoulder pieces.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmm, can't be a boob on the part of the sculptor? There are several of these shoulder paddings on several images, one large
on the left but on the right a small one in the shape of a small doubler flap.
The standard bearer/chap wit hthe parazonium
and the officer in the short hamata seems to have something.
A different form of doubler but some type of extra shoulder flap.

[Matt Lukes]

Awesome Mike, I hadn't see that site before- well done and very well done to the LEGVIII guys!

Sure the backwards epomidis could be just a sculptor error- look at how relatively crude the carvings are in general, so they were hardly done by a master. Unfortunately it does make taking details harder, but then when is it really easy when it comes to sculpture?

I dont' think the 'officer' (p. 6, images 3 and 4) is wearing mail- mail is very clearly denoted on all the other panels as concave 'dots', but his armour has none- that seems more to indicate a musculata than a hamata, moreover it seems to have detail decoration on it? And the standard bearer with the parazonium- which one is that Byron? Page and photo from the top of the ones you see that are hamatae with epomides would really help since I still don't see any... I can only see them definitely on some of the squamatae.

[Matt Lukes]

I believe, but i´m not sure, that there are no finds of Breasthooks which can be dated in the later 2. Century AD!

Well no, as I wrote, there is one known from Dura Europos, which is around 255CE IIRC; it's accession number G1744 (item 414 in James' book), and it's clearly of the usual style. Of course there's no mention of any indicator of deposition time, although I'd be surprised if it were significantly earlier since it's included with all the other 'last battle' material. The question is, is it from a mail shirt or a scale shirt? Since there are many depictions of squamatae with epomides, it stands to reason they may have used breast hooks as well; there's a Lorica hamata squamataque (L. plumata) from Turkey that actually has two sets of hooks, so it would seem even more likely the 'regular' scale armour used them as well. With the abundance of scale armour found at Dura, the hook could have belonged to one of them. Or it could be an old piece of equipment- given the evidence of multiple owner names marked on various helmets, for example, it does seem that equipment had a long life in the Roman military and since mail remained unchanged really for a very, very long time, I see no reason a shirt wouldn't have remained in service as long as it was servicable.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sorry, could be a spear he's carrying in image 3 + 4 page six. And it is a bit weathered , probably a musculata, but then there is the asymetrical doubler again.
And on page 4 image 8 + 10
Then on page 7 image 7

Some other images could be anything, but the guy in mail, with the pturegues sticking out, the proportions of his shoulder do not allow
a 100 id of exactly what the band on his shoulder is, it could as easily be the edge of a doubler as not.

Pity some of the most weathered images seem to have intrigueing differences than the clearly no doublered hamata and squamata which are less worn.

But look at page 3 image six, the guy on the left I can see the edge of a doubler just above his pommel and beside his
scutum strap. :o and I'm surethats a hamata they are wearing.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry, could be a spear he's carrying in image 3 + 4 page six. And it is a bit weathered , probably a musculata, but then there is the asymetrical doubler again.
And on page 4 image 8 + 10
Then on page 7 image 7

Some other images could be anything, but the guy in mail, with the pturegues sticking out, the proportions of his shoulder do not allow
a 100 id of exactly what the band on his shoulder is, it could as easily be the edge of a doubler as not.

Pity some of the most weathered images seem to have intrigueing differences than the clearly no doublered hamata and squamata which are less worn.

But look at page 3 image six, the guy on the left I can see the edge of a doubler just above his pommel and beside his
scutum strap. :o and I'm surethats a hamata they are wearing.

Matt wrote:

I dont' think the 'officer' (p. 6, images 3 and 4) is wearing mail- mail is very clearly denoted on all the other panels as concave 'dots', but his armour has none- that seems more to indicate a musculata than a hamata, moreover it seems to have detail decoration on it? And the standard bearer with the parazonium- which one is that Byron? Page and photo from the top of the ones you see that are hamatae with epomides would really help since I still don't see any... I can only see them definitely on some of the squamatae.

The imagery I have - photos specially commissioned many years ago for a Romanian archaeological publication, and taken under optimum lighting conditions, is often clearer, if not as distinct as modern photography. With rough textured surfaces, it is sometimes easier to see when 'standing back'.

Image 3&4 p.6 shows metope XXXII, the Emperor Trajan escorted by two 'auxiliary' type soldiers ( Equites Singularis? ). He seems to be definitely wearing a musculata, and from other metopes it has some greenery in relief at the bottom, and a spread-eagle above. It almost certainly has two 'epomides'/shoulder guards, the one on Trajan's left shoulder being obscured by the corner of his 'sagum/cloak' thrown over in typical style.

Page 4, 8 & 10. Eight (metope XXXIII) we have already discussed - the soldier (centurion?) in squamata taking a prisoner. Ten is metope VI, a cavalryman with cloak flying, who may be an officer ( see 'knot of hercules' (?) girdle around waist) I can see no trace of any 'doubler' on any of the images I've looked at.....you'll need to explain further, Byron.

Page 7 image 7 - is the one previously discussed ( metope XX), where I think the armhole is pretty clear- note the curvature runs round under the armpit above the scabbard - it is very clear on my imagery, and see details on page 5 images 6 & 7. I seriously doubt it could be anything else....

Page 3 image 6 - shows legionaries marching in 'undress' - no helmets or armour! (metope XLIV) Mind you, where you see 'hamata', when I first looked at this metope (40 years ago! ), I thought they were the shoulder pieces of segmentata! :wink:
Closer examination, and relating it to other metopes, though, leaves little room for doubt that 'paenulae' are being depicted - and indeed the Romanian captions and text refer to paenulae.They are wearing paenulae over tunics, and the lines you see are the diagonal edges and folds of the cloaks, and note the typical 'join' at the throat. This is very clear in other similar metopes. Points of interest are legionary 'braccae' ( not shown on the Column) and weighted pila.

Matt has noted that the 'epomides' on squamata is rare - in fact only once ! (metope XXXIII - see pcture I posted previously ), which raises the possibility that this 'better/more elaborate' squamata with single shoulder piece depicts a centurion.(?) Of interest is the method of sword carriage - a baldric plus horizontal 'tie-down' around the chest (Possibly?) ....if it isn't a 'Knot of Hercules girdle'...or something else - centurions often seem to have a girdle/decoration around the midriff.. :?

As to Standard bearers, several are shown, sometimes in squamata, sometimes mail, and sometimes 'undress' but on none of these does there appear to be any trace of a 'doubler', or for that matter anything which might safely be interpreted as a 'parazonium'. Again, Byron, could you specify, and explain what you are seeing?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Image 3 + 4 page 6.

I thought it was the hooked handle from a standard, but when you look at the image which is taken from further back, on page 2 it is clearly a parzonium(or eagle hilted sword)

[Paullus Scipio]

Ah!.....that's where Matt and I are getting confused....you initially saw metope XXXII ( Trajan and escort entering a wood) as a "standard bearer" because of the "shaft" and "hook Handle"....

All commentators I am aware of agree that this is a depiction Of Trajan ( largely because of the head and musculata) with escort....there are a couple of other portraits of him too.

I would certainly agree with you that this figure has an "eagle hilt" either on a gladius or parazonium - it can realistically be nothing else. D

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

well, at least we have the Ephesus image showing doublers. Gives a little weight to someone who may want to use them to portray a
soldier who still wants to use this older type of armour, when all around him have moved on to newer things.

[Paullus Scipio]

well, at least we have the Ephesus image showing doublers.

On 1 Dec Paullus Scipio wrote:

However, on the ivory piece from Ephesus, the rather narrow 'shoulder pieces' of Greek style do not seem to be mail 'doublers' , for they are not depicted the same 'pattern'/material as the mail shirt and seem to be of a different material, and there is no sign of the typical 'breast-hook' to hold a mail 'doubler' together....

The more I look again at this example, the more convinced I am that these shoulder pieces on the Ephesus Ivory are not a mail 'doubler'....they are the wrong shape altogether, and are clearly not 'mail' as depicted on the shirt. They appear to be something like the shoulder straps of the present Household Cavalry - perhaps brass horizontal strips with a bound leather edge. These narrow shoulder defences, two separate pieces are most usually seen on 'musculata'.

For another example of this difference, see the 'Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus' relief. There one can see both types, narrow/separate and 'mail doubler', of shoulder defence on mail. The legionary standing behind the sacrificial pig and looking to his left (viewers right) has a mail shirt with clear 'mail doubler'. The legionary shading his eyes and looking to his right has narrow shoulder pieces of some other material but possibly mail in this instance, although the material is depicted differently from the shirt itself, similar to the later Ephesus ivory. The man to his right in Apulo-Corinthian helmet again clearly has the 'mail doubler'.

Gives a little weight to someone who may want to use them to portray a
soldier who still wants to use this older type of armour, when all around him have moved on to newer things.

I think the best evidence for justifying this is not the Ephesus Ivory, but the fact that a 'breast hook' either for scale or mail turns up at 3 C AD Dura Europos,
Matt Lukes wrote:

Well no, as I wrote, there is one known from Dura Europos, which is around 255CE IIRC; it's accession number G1744 (item 414 in James' book), and it's clearly of the usual style. ..........Or it could be an old piece of equipment- given the evidence of multiple owner names marked on various helmets, for example, it does seem that equipment had a long life in the Roman military and since mail remained unchanged really for a very, very long time, I see no reason a shirt wouldn't have remained in service as long as it was servicable.

.....and as Ross Cowan suggested......

Ross Cowan wrote:
and my belief that durable equipment could remain in service for decades, hence the later second century setting. Entirely speculative on my part, of course.

....and with which I agreed...

...whilst it is true that there are no surviving iconographic depictions after the reign of Trajan of 'doublers', Ross is almost certainly correct in saying that in Imperial times durable equipment could stay in service for decades etc. An example of longevity that springs to mind is an Apulo-Corinthian helmet found in a tomb. On stylistic grounds, this was of a late fifth/early fourth C BC style, but actual dating of other grave goods came up with a late 3 C BC date for the burial. The helmet had apparently been in use for around 100 years.

At all events, it seems there is consensus that such items from the 1 C AD continued in use long after, and probably down to the 3 C AD.

[Peroni]

The more I look again at this example, the more convinced I am that these shoulder pieces on the Ephesus Ivory are not a mail 'doubler'....they are the wrong shape altogether, and are clearly not 'mail' as depicted on the shirt. They appear to be something like the shoulder straps of the present Household Cavalry - perhaps brass horizontal strips with a bound leather edge. These narrow shoulder defences, two separate pieces are most usually seen on 'musculata'.

Have to agree with you there Paul. They are certainly not ring mail. Look to me like either quilted or padded leather/fabric (edged) or possible metallic bands like wide scales, again edged in something like leather. Most probably the latter, as the cheek guards of the helmet are also depicted in the same fashion.