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+--- Thread: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them (/showthread.php?tid=16126)
Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Caius Valens - 11-28-2009
Greetings, Caius with a question In Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284 AD Ross Cowan shows a Legionary from the time of Marcus Aurelius with Mail Armour with a doubler In Ospery The Roman Army from Caesar to Trajan There is a picture of an Late 1st century Legionary of Legio II Adiutrix with Mail armour but no doubler. My question when did the Roman army stoped using doublers? Is the Mail doubler correct for a second centiury legionary? Most Reenactors who are Roman Legionaries seem to have the doubler but how many are second century types Thanks in advance Caius Valens (Thomas Razem)
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Matt Lukes - 11-29-2009
Hi Thomas,
None are shown on the Adamklissi Meotopes that I can see, and I don't think they appear on Trajan's Column either- I wouldn't go by simple books, or certainly artwork, since you can't be sure either is strenuously researched on every small detail- it's always best to look at primary source material (in this case mainly sculptures). I seem to remeber a breast hook from Dura Europos, which is mid-3rd century (if it was deposited during the battle), but that's way in the east so not necessarily illustrative of northern and western Europe.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Magnus - 11-29-2009
If you can make the meeting in December Thom, we can take a peak at some online stuff and browse my books to see if we can find anything.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Marcus Iulius Chattus - 11-30-2009
I believe, but i´m not sure, that there are no finds of Breasthooks which can be dated in the later 2. Century AD! Maybe there were some older shirts with Humeralia used, but it seems that the standart-Hamata were the plain-one whitout Humeralia.
@ Matt
D´Amato describes in his new book that on the Adamclissi Monument all kinds of Chainmail are depicted, even those with Humeralia!
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Paullus Scipio - 11-30-2009
Quote:I believe, but i´m not sure, that there are no finds of Breasthooks which can be dated in the later 2. Century AD! Maybe there were some older shirts with Humeralia used, but it seems that the standart-Hamata were the plain-one whitout Humeralia.
@ Matt
D´Amato describes in his new book that on the Adamclissi Monument all kinds of Chainmail are depicted, even those with Humeralia!
So far as the iconography goes, from the time of Trajan onward, no shoulder defences are depicted. If D'Amato really says that about the Adamklissi monument, then it is just another of his fantasies, for I have excellent imagery of ALL the metopes which I have just double checked, and there is no trace of any shoulder defences - simple mail shirts are shown like those on the column and the sculptures from Trajan's forum. Similarly the Marcus Aurelius column shows simple mail shirts, as do surviving bits of other monuments......
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Marcus Iulius Chattus - 12-01-2009
Sorry Paullus, i wrote only an information, which i found in his book ARMS AND ARMOUR OF THE IMPERIAL ROMAN SOLDIER on page 129, not more! I know not more than a dozen different pics from the Tropaeum Trajani and thought i can trust these Information.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - M. Demetrius - 12-01-2009
Is there a handy URL for us to take a look at the Adamklissi metopes up close? Lots of things there are of interest. I've found some partial sets via Google, but ---
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Paullus Scipio - 12-01-2009
Quote:Is there a handy URL for us to take a look at the Adamklissi metopes up close? Lots of things there are of interest. I've found some partial sets via Google, but ---...alas, not that I am aware of. I was going to scan these images up onto a RAT database at one time, but Tarbicus suggested there was a better way, however it was a project that got no farther ( it's a big job! ).
One of our Irish members put up pics taken of the metopes on their website some time ago, and I thought these were a complete set (?)
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Marcus Iulius Chattus - 12-01-2009
Handy URL??? What the hell is that???
I´m really interested in those pics, too. My only book with some pics of the Tropaeum Adamclissi is on loan.....
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - arklore70 - 12-01-2009
Well for the Adamklissi monument, the best site I know of, and it has been posted here before I think is fromthe LEG VIII Augusta website.
http://www.leg8.com/Musees/Adamclisi_02.php
They took some awesome pictures and I for one am highly glad they did.
R/
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-01-2009
Hmmm, I can see what could well be doublers on two chain mail clad soldiers.
Of course there is enough doubt to satisfy anyone who would dismiss the idea, sadly.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Magnus - 12-01-2009
Quote:So far as the iconography goes, from the time of Trajan onward, no shoulder defences are depicted. If D'Amato really says that about the Adamklissi monument, then it is just another of his fantasies, for I have excellent imagery of ALL the metopes which I have just double checked, and there is no trace of any shoulder defences - simple mail shirts are shown like those on the column and the sculptures from Trajan's forum. Similarly the Marcus Aurelius column shows simple mail shirts, as do surviving bits of other monuments......
No kidding. A lot of what has been posted here on RAT about what D'Amato has written has completely turned me off of purchasing his book.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - M. Demetrius - 12-01-2009
Quote:the best site I know of,Thanks, Mike. Bookmarked!
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - PhilusEstilius - 12-01-2009
Byron
I think that I also see what you mention there appears to be one at page four however that is on Squamata, but then at page five there looks to be one on Hamata maybe more checks might confirm this.
Re: Roman Mail doublers when did they stop using them - Ross Cowan - 12-01-2009
Quote:In Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284 AD Ross Cowan shows a Legionary from the time of Marcus Aurelius with Mail Armour with a doubler.
The idea for the mail shirt with the shoulder doubling developed after seeing this ivory frieze from Ephesus, showing Trajan with his soldiers
[url:3ecuifqp]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/EfesMuseumElfenbein1.JPG[/url]
and my belief that durable equipment could remain in service for decades, hence the later second century setting. Entirely speculative on my part, of course. ;-) )
Cheers,
R!