Guttmann Collection Helmet History - Italic "H"

[Anonymous]

Red,<br>
The measurements as given in Romische Helme by Junkelmann. I've put it in the original German with English in brackets- that way, if my schoolboy German is wrong, you guys don't suffer! (If one of the German RAT guys could check my translation? Strangely, Roman military terms didn't feature in my German lessons in Sussex... and I still don't know how to type an umlaut )<br>
<br>
Material: Eisen, Stahl, Messing, Quarzkeramik (Iron, Steel, Brass, Quartz ceramic(?))<br>
Gesamtlange (ohne Scheide) (entire length without sheath) 300mm<br>
Lange der Axtklinge (ab Riefelung) (length of axe blade(ab Riefelung?) 135mm<br>
Lange der Hackenklinge (Length of pick) 97mm<br>
Breite der Axtklinge (Schneide) breadth of axe blade (sheath) 173mm<br>
Breite der Hackenklinge (width of pick): 77mm<br>
Lange der Scheide (length of sheath) 217mm<br>
Gewicht (ohne Scheide) (weight without sheath): 686g<br>
Gewicht der Scheide : 78g<br>
<br>
Date: 2/3 C AD<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Paulus<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=paulusbrittanicus>Paulus Brittanicus</A> at: 4/1/05 8:30 am<br></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,<br>
<br>
Getting back to the Italic "H" - I own one made by Deepeeka.<br>
Does anyone know what the ring's fuction is ? I refer to the ring found on the very top.<br>
<br>
-Theo <p><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/CHI-RO2.jpg" style="border:0;"/></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Getting back to the Italic "H" - I own one made by Deepeeka.<br>
Does anyone know what the ring's fuction is ? I refer to the ring found on the very top.<br>
<hr><br>
<br>
<br>
How do you like your Deepeeka? Did you get the all-brass (Neidermormter) model, or the steel-and-brass (Guttmann) model? I've been thinking about getting one of these. I've heard they are HUGE, much bigger than their usual helmets.<br>
<br>
I think the consensus on the ring is that it was a crest mount of some sort; the easiest form yould have been a simple horsehair "tail" looped through the ring and tied off in some fashion, but it's also possible some sort of fitted crest box may have gone over the knob with a slot for the ring, with a pin being inserted through a hole in the side of the box (and through the ring) to hold it in place.<br>
<br>
I also wonder if this is what is intended by the helmet rings found on many of the helmets seen on Trajan's Column, which may mean this type of crest mount was in use much earlier than the later second century date assigned to the Italic H.<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/4/05 7:52 am<br></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Crispvs,<br>
<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>How do you like your Deepeeka? Did you get the all-brass (Neidermormter) model, or the steel-and-brass (Guttmann) model? I've been thinking about getting one of these. I've heard they are HUGE<hr><br>
<br>
Yes it is ! The neckguard spans completely over my shoulders . It isn't uncomfortable though. My model is the Guttmann version.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the consensus on the ring is that it was a crest mount of some sort<hr><br>
<br>
Makes sense, but I don't think there's any monumental evidence to support a "tail" (at least during the Imperial period.)<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also wonder if this is what is intended by the helmet rings found on many of the helmets seen on Trajan's Column<hr><br>
<br>
Yeah, I would think so.<br>
<br>
This helmet's for my third century impression. I'm still waiting for my Newstead to arrive.<br>
<br>
-Theo<br>
<br>
<br>
<p><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/CHI-RO2.jpg" style="border:0;"/></p><i></i>

[Flavius Promotus]

My guess is the ring should make it easier to fix the helmet to the lorica (personal experience). Use the handle of the neckshield to attach the helmet to the left shoulder plate, then use a second leather thong to connect the top ring with the armour - the helmet stays in place and doesn't annoy you by moving to all possible locations.

The brass version of the Niedermoermter (Italic H) does not have this ring, but perhaps a thong or thread could be attached to the brow guard ?
And of course, the abovementioned method might be more difficult with a hamata or squamata.

[Antonius Lucretius]

Regarding the ring on top of that magnificent helmet. The piece belonged to a soldier of XXXth legio Ulpia Victrix, raised by Trajan, as indicated on the browband. So I tend to think it is earlier than late second century CE because of that, and I think this was one of the types used during the trajanic campaigns. The latest fashion I suppose.
Granted, XXXth Ulpia Victrix existed until quite late --the fifth century CE if I recall-- However, it was granted the title "Pia Fidelis" by Septimus Severus in 193 and I suspect that if that helmet was late second Century CE, its owner would have indicated that he was from LEG XXX U.V.P.F., Not only LEG XXX U.V.
So, in any case --according to that theory-- it is earlier that Septimus..
..Well, I think..

[Praefectusclassis]

However, it was granted the title "Pia Fidelis" by Septimus Severus in 193 and I suspect that if that helmet was late second Century CE, its owner would have indicated that he was from LEG XXX U.V.P.F., Not only LEG XXX U.V.

Yes, but the Legion was not consistent in mentioning PF, see Ritterling's article: [url:38oaeen1]http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Miscellanii/Miscellaneous_Main/Ritterling/Misc-Ritterling-Histories.asp?Id=6[/url]

[caiusbeerquitius]

The Deepeeka versions of the Niedermoermter helmets both have a serious mistake, which prevented me from buying them. The pearl-band decoration on the originals is a pearl-band wire welded to the helmets. (as can be seen above) The Deepeeka helmets have the pattern hammered from the inside through the helmet's brass decoration itself, and the pattern is much, much cruder. This IMO looks so horrible that I cannot recommend buying this helmet to anyone.

But make your own judgement:



vs.

[FlaviusCrispus]

Avete, amici!

Thank you for your comments on the Deepeeka version of the Guttmann helmet, caiusarquitius. I've been curious about that one for awhile. I can see the difference in the "bead work". Can you comment on the size of this helmet? Various people have told me it is really huge-- i.e. that a fairly large head "swims" in it, and that the neck guard spans the entire shoulders of the wearer.

Antonius -- the Neidermormter helmet (that is, the all-bronze version of the Italic H with a knob instead of a ring at the top) did indeed belong to a soldier from XXXth Ulpia Victrix, but not the Guttmann version. This one has an inscription for a Julius Mansuetus (or some variation thereof) on the neck guard, and the mouse-loaf motif on the bowl identify this soldier as a Praetorian.

[Theodosius the Great]

Crispus,

I'll bring my Italic H to the K-Faire on memorial day weekend. If you're coming you can see it for yourself.

[FlaviusCrispus]

Comerus Gallus --

Yes, I'm quite familiar with this photo, since I took it. Julian Dendy (aka Marcus Antonius Celer) is from the Legio XIIII RMRS in Britannia. I tried putting the Guttmann helmet on my own head, but it wouldn't fit. It did fit Julian, but just barely. But this is the ACTUAL Guttmann hemet-- I am more specifically interested in the Deepeeka replica, since I don't intend to acquire the Guttmann helmet, build new cheek pieces for it and wear it to the next Legio VI event...

Theodosius--

Thanks-- I think I'll be able to make it to the K-burg walk through, and I look forward to meeting you there. You truly are "the Great."