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03-27-2005, 02:26 AM

It is proported to be the greatest current example of a roman Imperial Italic "H" type helmet in the world today, it is a magnificant example and I was wondering if its history is documented, how did it survive the ages, it does not appear to have been excavated so surely its documenetd history exists throughout its existence in collections? Can anybody assist as when you look upon photos of this example it appears to have come off the head of a roman last week!!!!! 
 
www.legionsix.org/Real%20Gear.htm

Daniel S Peterson · 03-27-2005, 12:39 PM

Tadius, 
I enjoyed the thrill of holding this helmet during the set-up of the Rosenheim exhibition, and agee that it does seem remarkalbly well preserved. So well preserved that someone actually tried it on! There is little doubt that the iron is somewhat restored but to what great extent I cannot say. I wanted to try the "magnet test" at the time, to see how much real iron was still there, but did not have one with me. 
Iron that well preserved, if it is the original iron, is not so remarkable. There are some regions in Southern Germany, for example, where the thin spring-pin of a 2300 year old Celtic iron fibula still works perfectly, yet only yards away in a "sumpf" the entire artifact could be reduced to a mere rusty stain in the soil. 
 
The lack of Patina on the curpic alloy does suggest a water, rather than ground find, though it might have been "cleaned" by the first amateur collector/finder. 
 
As I understand it, like so much of the Guttman collection this helmet was illicitly recovered in the Balkan region without much provenance, though it is said that a dagger in the collection was found together with it. In these cases, authenticity is always suspect no matter how "real" the finds seem. It seemed "right" to me though, as it must have for Gutmann, and now, the museum that won the auction for it. 
 
Dan

03-27-2005, 04:16 PM

<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/neiderright.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
A question- were cheek guards ever fitted to this helmet? 
I see no sign of any rivets to which they could have been attached. 
Secondly, it seems amazing that given the wonderful state of preservation that cheek guards would not have survived?

03-27-2005, 08:25 PM

Thanks for the reply, I envy the fact that you have held such a remarkable example of roman military hardware. It is a pity provenance cannot be established and that the two pieces are not together, do you know which museum has it now, I did see it for auction for $500,000, how much did it sell for in the end?

Tarbicus · 03-27-2005, 08:31 PM

Are these parts of hinges from the cheekguards? 
 
<img src="http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jimmy5191/images/Neider_detail_combi.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

FlaviusCrispus · 03-28-2005, 08:48 AM

Ave, fratres. 
 
As Dan pointed out, the Guttmann Italic H was a private treaty acquisition by means of a well-known German dealer in ancient militaria; how he came to acquire it, I'm not sure, but a Balkans origin seems plausible. 
 
I looked the piece over pretty carefully; I believe there is some "fill" in the bowl section of the helmet, but my impression is that about 75-80% of the iron and all of the brass is original. The cleaning and conservation are in fact quite well done, not the usual half-assed hatched job done by some of the Bulgarian "finders." Given the "Tiber Patina" of the brass parts, I think a water find is quite likely (although I hate to think of some Roman-- or worse, some barbarian!-- deliberately tossing such a fine piece into a river to placate some god). 
 
The helmet would certainly have had cheek pieces, and part of the hinges (as seen in Tarb's close-ups) are still visible. I remember looking on the inside of the helmet at and noticing the attachment points for the cheek pieces, but I can't quite remember how they were attached to the skull. Some kind of brazing, I would imagine. 
 
It is really quite a wonderfully made helmet, giving lie to the commonly repeated assertion that the so-called Italic helmets are inferior in workmanship to the "Gallic" (with eyebrows)helmets. Getting to inspect it up close, hold it, and photograph was a true priviledge. I did, in fact, try to fit it on my head, but it was just a shade to small for my big noggin. It did fit my friend Julian Dendy of the Legio XIIII RMS, snugly, and there is a shot of him wearing it on the Leg VI Real Gear page. 
 
Suprisingly (or perhaps not, given the 250,000-300,000 pound estimate and probably a high reserve), this helmet went unsold at the Christie's Guttmann II auction. There was some discussion of the Guttmann family donating it to a museum, but as of yet the issues involved in this are unresolved and the helmet remains in the Guttmann estate. There are really only a tiny handful of private collectors of Roman militaria in the world who can afford such a thing, and with Herr Guttmann's death, fewer still. Museum budgets are extremely tight just now and few have any interest in acquiring examples of ancient armor unless it doubles as "art" (for example, Greek Corinthian helmets and Roman faceplate helmets). Hopefully, someone will recognize how extraordinary this piece is and endow an institution to acquire it so it will end up in somewhere where the public can admire it. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus / Dave Michaels 
Legio VI VPF 
CA, USA 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/28/05 10:51 am

Flavius Promotus · 03-29-2005, 05:05 AM

According to M. Junkelmann (Roemische Helme), the helmet was not only found together with a dolabra and a Kuenzing pugio, but also with a Lauriacum/Hromovka type spatha. 
 
Could this mean the Imperial Italic H type (= "Niedermoermter iron/brass) was still used in the first half of the 3rd century ?

03-29-2005, 09:06 AM

Thanks for the feedback Flavius Promotus , it is a pitty the find is not together, did Guttmann have those pieces in his collection? Do photos exist of this find and other pieces you mentioned?

aitor iriarte · 03-29-2005, 09:54 AM

Not to mention that, equally unsold, lovely, even in its highly incomplete condition, Intercisa helmet. It was by no means so expensive, a pity that nobody of us, late RATers had the money to make an offer for him to the Guttmann heirs 
Flavius (Dave), I plan to write a paper on late helmets soon and I wonder if you'd give me your permission to use one of your pics for it, that of the inner side, where the attachments for the crest can be clearly seen. Thanks in advance (Whatever your decission will be! ) 
 
Aitor

Flavius Promotus · 03-29-2005, 06:06 PM

Since the office I'm sitting in is only a few hundred yards from the library, I could dig up some information on the "Guttmann Niedermoermter". 
 
It is published in: 
Junkelmann, Marcus, Roemische Helme (= Born, Hermann [Ed.], Sammlung Axel Guttmann Vol. , Mainz 2000. 
 
The helmet (with lovely images) is described on pages 142-144 + 153. 
It weighs 1730 g without the (lost) cheekpieces. 
 
Really a lightweight 
 
The material is 1-1,5 mm iron. It is said to have been found in the Balkans, either in a river or in a load of gravel [perhaps both ?] 
The helmet was discovered together with 
 
a) a Kuenzing pugio (p. 154f.): lenghth 450 mm including the sheath and max. width 90 mm including the sheath. One of the suspension rings was still there, as well as remnants of the leather. (nice images !) 
 
b) an infantry spatha type Lauriacum/Hromowka (p. 155f.): 857 mm long, blade 650 mm long and 65 mm wide. 
(a cavalry spatha type Straubing/Nydam would be longer and thinner) 
 
c) a dolabra with a beautiful brass sheath (p. 156f.). Weight: 686 g without the sheath and the (lost) shaft. 
(nice images !) 
 
I'm not sure, but the sheath of the Deepeeka Dolabra I ordered in 2003 (I did NOT get it yet!!!) lookes very similar to this one. Perhaps it was taken as the model ? 
Dan might know more about this.

FlaviusCrispus · 03-29-2005, 10:27 PM

Promotus et al-- 
 
Here is a picture of the dolabra head and sheath, together with a replica gladius, from the Legio VI "Real Gear" page: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/replicasword.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
The iron on the dolabra head, like that of the helmet, is in remarkably good condition, indicating, I think, burial in anaerobic conditions (in a silt and gravel bed at the bottom of a stream, as indicated). I did not not get a shot of the spatha or pugio. Were these offered in the Guttmann II sale? 
 
Aitor-- 
 
You may certainly use the Intercisa image from the Real Gear page, with a proper credit, of course! 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VPF 
CA, USA Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/30/05 12:30 am

03-30-2005, 02:17 AM

Has any body the measurements on the subject item? Thanks. 
Red

aitor iriarte · 03-30-2005, 04:58 AM

Many thanks, Flavius 
If the paper goes beyond the draft condition, your pic will go duly credited. Also, if it were published, I could send you an off-print if you're interested (Spanish language, I'm afraid!) 
 
Aitor

Flavius Promotus · 03-30-2005, 04:31 PM

Flavius - do you also have an image of the pugio ? 
 
Red - do you mean measurements of the helmet ? 
 
Valete

03-30-2005, 08:01 PM

No Sir, 
I am interested in scale measurements of the dolabra. 
Thanks, 
Red

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