Roman Legion Symbols Found in Ancient Cave

[Narukami]

In fact, it looks more like the underground hideaways common during the Bar Kokhba revolt, but only the associated finds can help to prove this.

Does that sound sensible?

I think that this will be the conclusion once further examinations of the site are conducted.

The soldiers left their marker to indicate that they were responsible for destroying this particular group of rebels be it the first Jewish Revolt in the 60's - 70's or the later Bar Kokhba revolt. Later the cave was taken over by others which might account for the Christian symbols from 350CE.

It does look a bit like a vexillum below a cross bar with pendants. Not something we are familiar with to be sure but as we all know troops in the field have been know to deviate from normal military rules and procedures. Then too the "artist" may not have been a Leonardo or a Rembrandt.

Of course a more detailed examination may prove this to be way off the mark, but given what little we know I do not think this too far fetched. As always, time will tell.

:|

Narukami

[D B Campbell]

Does that sound sensible?

That makes a lot more sense than the idea that the wedding cake is a legionary symbol.

Presumably one of the Gemina legions?! 1jf70fxh](Sorry ... I'll go away now.)[/size]

[Nathan Ross]

Here's another idea - just speculation! :wink:

Apparently a legion was destroyed during the Bar Kokhba revolt, and in the earlier uprising in 69AD another legion (XII?) was severely mauled. Some of you have suggested that the cave might have been used as a refuge by a Jewish rebel group in one or other of these wars - might the 'legion standard' carved into the wall be a commemoration that that either this group or some other connected to them were responsible for destroying a legion and capturing its standards?

That would at least explain why the standard itself looks so odd - an actual Roman soldier would have accurate knowledge of its construction and appearance, but a Jewish rebel who might only have seen one from a distance and be relying on memory might easily come up with something like this symbol.

[Narukami]

Interesting point.

Of course at this stage in the excavation, with so little information, any thing is possible. That being said, your speculation is not only possible but really rather intriguing.

I wonder if we will ever know.

:?


Narukami

[M. Demetrius]

That would at least explain why the standard itself looks so odd - an actual Roman soldier would have accurate knowledge of its construction and appearance, but a Jewish rebel who might only have seen one from a distance and be relying on memory might easily come up with something like this symbol.

Did other armies ever use standards? I know the Judean mandate not to make idols or images, but some form of standard must have been used for identification of different units. And in armies of the other civilizations who came through the regions at different times, were there not standards of one sort or another?

I guess my central question is, just because some artifacts in a cave can be positively dated to a certain time, does it stand to reason that the engravings on the wall were necessarily made at the same time? Could not those engravings have been there already when the occupants who left the artifacts arrived? or added some decades later? Just rambling as usual. :|

[Jona Lendering]

Did other armies ever use standards?

Here is a Sasanian standard on a relief from Naqš-i Rustam (Bahram II fighting against an unidentified Roman):

[PhilusEstilius]

I have been looking very hard at this symbol in this cave and I begin to wonder if some one has not gone off with a total misconception about it being a Roman standard.
Is is not a funerary symbol as we find on the reverse of Roman coinage such as on commemorative coins of Late Emperors, a bit like the Castell St Angelo or the Tomb of Avgvstvs. just a thought !!

[Robert Vermaat]

(Bahram II fighting against an unidentified Roman)

Why a Roman? He looks more like another Persian or Parthian.

[Jona Lendering]

(Bahram II fighting against an unidentified Roman)

Why a Roman? He looks more like another Persian or Parthian.

I know; and besides, at the end of the third century, Rome was often successful. Still, this is what the explanatory sign said, and what I read in several books. One of the arguments appears to be the man's helmet. I admit that this is one of the subjects that I want to check, because Iranian explanatory signs, and Iranological books, are seldom up to date. BTW: almost all Sasanian rock relief commemorate either an investituture or a victory over a Roman emperor, the only enemy who really mattered.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I have been looking very hard at this symbol in this cave and I begin to wonder if some one has not gone off with a total misconception about it being a Roman standard.
Is is not a funerary symbol as we find on the reverse of Roman coinage such as on commemorative coins of Late Emperors, a bit like the Castell St Angelo or the Tomb of Avgvstvs. just a thought !!

Interesting idea, any images?