Glued Linen Armour- a simple test

[Astiryu1]

Thank you for all of the very useful information and scources of evidence. I never have had such a trove of different viewpoints and pointers on Ancient Weaponry and Armor. I have only the few books, 20 years of martial arts, and redneck ingenuity to go with. My week on RAT has stepped up my game considerably. Thank You all.

P.S.-

Nice Bronze Tank armor Dan, I have seen it in documentaries but never caught the name.
I was wondering what it was called in english and in greek.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sean wrote:

Careful there Paullus! Any given style of bow can be made in a wide range of draw weights, and fire a range of types of ammunition.

Very much agreed, Sean !
1. Information derived from arrowheads:
In broad terms, larger arrowheads rquire more powerful bows, smaller ones indicate less powerful.The diameter of the socket is also useful in determining maximum force.
2. Information derived from arrow shafts:
Length and stiffness of surviving arrow shafts, as well as their material can allow calculation of maximum force.
3. The flight of the arrow :
Shape and mass of the arrow can allow calculation of rate of energy loss, and through use of a ballistic constant, range of the arrow itself.
4. Design of the Bow:
Upper limits of of kinetic energy can be reasonably accurately estimated, taking into account factors such as archer draw ( Blyth allows anything up to a 25% variation in archer strength - so is not arriving at a "standard" figure, but rather an average), the distance the string is drawn back, the geometry of the bow and the materials used in construction.
Many other factors, too numerous to go into here were also considered.

If these methods all produce consistent results, then a reasonable range for kinetic energy will occur, especially for the upper/maximum figures - Blyth does not treat this as 'standardised', nor does he look at individual bows.

Also, what evidence is there of any Old World bow which was drawn to the chest?

Arrow lengths are a good guide... examples found vary from 60 cm-75 cm or so long - the shorter types can only have been drawn to the chest, and indeed there are iconographic representations of this. Later Scythian bows got larger and more powerful, with arrows evolving from very small heads on a wooden foreshaft on a reed shaft, to larger heads on an all wooden shaft ( though with so few finds, a full evolution cannot yet be established - see my AW article on Parthian bows for information on some finds)

Dan wrote:

Here is one set of data extracted from one of their graphs.
Bow 1 Scythian 60cm draw length 205N draw weight
34g arrow averaged 38m/s (1m from bow)
36g arrow averaged 36m/s (1m from bow)
38g arrow averaged 35m/s (1m from bow)

That is interesting, Dan, and for a rough comparison Blyth describes Scythian arrows of the Persian war period, with reed shafts, as weighing around 15-25 g and initial velocities of the order of 48-66 m/sec, in order to have a range of over 200 m. I suspect that Molloy and co may have used solid shafted arrows rather than hollow reed ones, hence the arrows are too heavy, leading to the lower initial velocities.....(????)

[Astiryu1]

On the other hand tests for an article in "Primitive Archer" revealed that "Bird Points" ( small arrowheads ) were very effective at downing good size deer. Like in martial arts' spearhand techniques," Smaller area, more penetration"!

[MeinPanzer]

he used several methods:
1. Information derived from arrowheads:
In broad terms, larger arrowheads rquire more powerful bows, smaller ones indicate less powerful.The diameter of the socket is also useful in determining maximum force.

Just a caveat on this one: some of the only evidence that we have concerning bow strengths and archery equipment from antiquity that I am aware of, relating to Cretan and Persian archers between the 4th and 2nd c. BC, shows that a lot of caution is required for this sort of assessment. Cretans by the 4th c. BC employed Scythian-type bows, but they also employed the large arrowheads which are not uncommonly found in archaeological contexts around the eastern Mediterranean. During the Anabasis, despite the fact that the Cretans had bows of about the same size as the Persians (3.4.17), they were outranged by the them, and they only began to match them when they captured some Persian arrows. Further, we are told in Livy that Cretan archers fighting under Perseus against the Romans lacked "the power of penetration" against the Roman shields, and so they were forced to harass the enemy with stones at times (31.39.12). This strongly suggests that they were simply using Scythian bows of average power with heavier arrowheads and/or arrowshafts, and so a correlation between arrowhead and bow strength cannot necessarily be assumed.

[Astiryu1]

Has anyone seen the testing video that the college in Wisconson has done on their Linothorax. You can find it on youtube.com and excerpts on linothorax on Wikipedia.com

[Paullus Scipio]

he used several methods:
1. Information derived from arrowheads:
In broad terms, larger arrowheads rquire more powerful bows, smaller ones indicate less powerful.The diameter of the socket is also useful in determining maximum force.

Just a caveat on this one: some of the only evidence that we have concerning bow strengths and archery equipment from antiquity that I am aware of, relating to Cretan and Persian archers between the 4th and 2nd c. BC, shows that a lot of caution is required for this sort of assessment. Cretans by the 4th c. BC employed Scythian-type bows, but they also employed the large arrowheads which are not uncommonly found in archaeological contexts around the eastern Mediterranean. During the Anabasis, despite the fact that the Cretans had bows of about the same size as the Persians (3.4.17), they were outranged by the them, and they only began to match them when they captured some Persian arrows. Further, we are told in Livy that Cretan archers fighting under Perseus against the Romans lacked "the power of penetration" against the Roman shields, and so they were forced to harass the enemy with stones at times (31.39.12). This strongly suggests that they were simply using Scythian bows of average power with heavier arrowheads and/or arrowshafts, and so a correlation between arrowhead and bow strength cannot necessarily be assumed.

Agreed!......that is why Blyth combined a number of methods, which turned out to produce a consistent result. His methodology needs to be read in detail to fully appreciate his work. Whilst a single bow can shoot a variety of heads of differing weights, there are limitations on this. Also, Blyth was seeking to establisch maximum forces.....the fact that some archers such as Cretans were not using an efficient combination of arrow/bow simply means that their bows were less powerful, and for test purposes, it is the maximum which needs to be established.

[Astiryu1]

If I can stop an arrow shot from my 60 lb draw recurve with glue and fabric ; I am officially ( in my thought process ) ready for action! We can talk about numbers all day, but I am sadly not that great at math so keeping up with this will take me days to convert and research everything. I don't mind except for the boggle

[Dan Howard]

Do you know which archaeological evidence they drew on in reconstructing these bows? And what sort of Scythian bows were they - those of the western Scythians or Saka? Or did they just use "Scythian" as a generic steppe term?

They cite the examples found at Tuva and Kurgan 2 in the south of Kerc. The book is well worth buying. Among other papers, there is an article on the Dendra Panoply in which the author tries to convince the reader that Mycenaeans used it to fight duels with a sword in each hand. And a very good article about Egyptian scale armour written by Hulit and Richardson - including results from shooting reconstructions with arrows. There is also a write up by Barry about his survey of Bronze Age Greek and Irish swords as well as the results of his experiments with attacking various shields with these swords.

[Dan Howard]

That is interesting, Dan, and for a rough comparison Blyth describes Scythian arrows of the Persian war period, with reed shafts, as weighing around 15-25 g and initial velocities of the order of 48-66 m/sec, in order to have a range of over 200 m. I suspect that Molloy and co may have used solid shafted arrows rather than hollow reed ones, hence the arrows are too heavy, leading to the lower initial velocities.....(????)

The article goes into some detail about how they determined the optimal arrow weight for their reconstructions. The lightest arrows that were used were 22g and these had a velocity of 42m/s with Bow 1. The heavier arrows would be needed to have any chance of punching through armour or shields.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan wrote:

The lightest arrows that were used were 22g and these had a velocity of 42m/s with Bow 1. The heavier arrows would be needed to have any chance of punching through armour or shields.

...figures very close to Blyth's then, for comparable arrows. The second sentence is also borne out by Blyth's study, which showed that Greek defensive armour and shields were designed to stop, and were effective against weapons with a Kinetic energy of 30 joules +/- 15 joules. The shield could keep out spears/javelins of up to 60 joules, but was vulnerable to arrows - the infantry arrows with an energy of 25-35 joules could potentially penetrate at close range, but Scythian arrows of 20-25 joules were relatively ineffective and would not penetrate a shield.

[PMBardunias]

Tangential question, but since we are using arrow length as an indicator, did the Skythians have a means of overdrawing their bows?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

In Kendo, we use machine or hand stitched armour (apart from the breastplate)

They are layer upon layer of cloth, tightly stitched. they are springy and very resilient even to piercing.

Has anyone thought of the idea the Linothorax might have been made using the same technique?



M.VIB.M.

[Dan Howard]

In Kendo, we use machine or hand stitched armour (apart from the breastplate)

They are layer upon layer of cloth, tightly stitched. they are springy and very resilient even to piercing.

Has anyone thought of the idea the Linothorax might have been made using the same technique?

For about four years now If you search for "Kendo armour" you'd probably find some of my posts.

[Astiryu1]

I never was able to get a hand on some kendo armor but it seems similar. My linothorax ( when completed ) will serve as such when sparring armed or unarmed.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:

Tangential question, but since we are using arrow length as an indicator, did the Skythians have a means of overdrawing their bows?

If you mean something like an arrow-guide, as used by the Turks for their long-range flight arrows, then the answer is 'not as far as we know'. Such a device is in any event not very practicable on the battlefield.

Over time Scythian bows became larger and more powerful, and arrows longer and stiffer - see article in latest "AncientWarfare" for details.