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Greek linen armour - what did it look like?
#1
Wink 
First off, I am sorry for bringing this everdiscussed topic up yet again, however the last discussions on it I saw were a few years ago and I am hoping more consensus has been reached, or perhaps more evidence found.

I will preface this by saying that the ancient greek or roman world is not my area of focus, and so I know rather little about it (I am mainly interested in the middle ages) What I do know I have picked up from people who research it - like here.

So from what I understand, the 'linothorax' (yes I know it is a modern derivative) is heavily disputed. Something it doesn't seem to be is the classic tube and yolk style of armour that is depicted in a lot of greek art.

My question is threefold. One  - did the greeks make widespread use of linen armour in any period of history? Two - is there any findings of any linen armour from greece? And three - is it a reasonable assumption to make that the 'linothorakes' may be constructed in a gambeson-like manner, meaning layered and quilted?
"No, vikings didn't wear any goddamn gambesons" - Me, explaining the same thing for the hundredth time

- Ali Zufer
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#2
Some "Greeks" in Homeric descriptions wore linen armour --probably quilted linen. Fragments of layered linen (14 layers) have been found in a Mycenaean shaft grave. In later periods texts mention it in a foreign military context --folks other than Greeks are mentioned wearing it, though this does not preclude Greeks themselves from wearing it at the same period. Later depictions from Archaic forward to the Classical period seem to show quilted linen armour; the quilting stitches seem to be shown. Weft-twined linen armour (not made on a loom), was also very likely used, perhaps covered in a layer(s) of linen fabric or leather. This kind of armour is described:
https://books.google.com/books?id=IqhZBA...ed&f=false
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.36111.html
I'm trying to make some, here:
https://www.romanarmytalk.com/showthread...#pid348700
http://i.imgur.com/YWMJgkY.jpg

Qui sepeliunt capita sua in terra, deos volantes non videbunt.
--Flavius Flav 
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#3
We have no idea what Greek linen armour looked like. The tube and yoke armour we see in illustrations is more likely to have been made from hide. It is likely that some of their armour was made from linen but there is nothing to say that it must have been of a tube and yoke style. IMO it was made in a very similar manner as a light European jack - 10-15 layers of linen compressed with dense rows of quilting.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#4
(12-07-2019, 10:23 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: We have no idea what Greek linen armour looked like. The tube and yoke armour we see in illustrations is more likely to have been made from hide. It is likely that some of their armour was made from linen but there is nothing to say that it must have been of a tube and yoke style. IMO it was made in a very similar manner as a light European jack - 10-15 layers of linen compressed with dense rows of quilting.
Careful now, there is no evidence or consensus that the T&Y was made of hide. There are many folks who look at the scarcity of data and think hide and many others who think layered linen, with adhesive or not. The consensus is the armor was made in the shape you see on the depictions, it's not just an artistic convention, but from there we await further evidence that is conclusive. 

My money is on technology. We can now read ancient Papyrus used for mummy masks and most of that was ordinary record keeping and other banal subjects. One record discussing hides or linen for armor used by the numerous Greek mercenaries in Egypt would be welcome!
Joe Balmos
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#5
I now doubt that hide (rawhide treated in some manner to make it more water resistant) was used in large sections for Greek armour, such as Tube & Yoke style armour. Treated hide works well for scale armour, as the small scales, if sealed properly are much less hygroscopic and not as prone to continuous warping; large sections of hide deform if there is any kind of humidity, regardless of sealing methods. Large sections of hide will become "bumpy" and begin to continuously deform, and there is no remedy. Hide is also subject to more bacterial action and rot because the inner portion can't be reached by any sealants. Further, attempts to paint hide just cause more warping and the paint layer is only on the surface of the hide, unable to penetrate and thus cracks off easily; white would be an impossibility.

I don't believe layers of linen were used in armours of the Tube & Yoke style either; it's not suited to that kind of construction --the edging on ptyreges and other parts would eventually come off with a lot of movement, it wouldn't have both the springiness and thinness seen in depictions. Further, as the layers of are of plain-weave linen, the outer layer will eventually begin to fray, etc. and with sword cuts, would have to be repaired by sewing, with patches or seams --and that isn't very attractive or strong either.. And there is no evidence for the special ancient glue..

Weft wining can arguable be seen on a number of depictions, most notably the Etruscan Urns, and it has been used by other cultures to make defensive cloaksm and historic leather armour exists, and some of it has been casein treated. The white milk paint with the pigments used, in particular strengthens leather.

Qui sepeliunt capita sua in terra, deos volantes non videbunt.
--Flavius Flav 
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