The Dory

[Kineas]

I think it was the increasingly complex nature of warfare, rather than lack of trained Hoplites that saw these trends occur - I don't believe that Hoplite quality decreased.Rather, with the increase of full-time mercenaries, the growth of permanent epilektoi ( picked men), and just the increasing professionalism generally led to a decided improvement of the quality of Hoplite forces over the peasant-farmer militia of the 6th C BC.

and

Where I think you go wrong is that by the late 5th century Poleis are actively countering this. They are training elite units and hiring well trained mercenaries.

Are the two points I'm going to engage. I actually think that this relates to Dory length--otherwise I'd suggest that we are off to our usual three cornered argument and should start a new thread.

Overall--I think the trend of military history is that the creation of elite units usually indicates that the quality of the military overall is, in fact, declining. Again--not a popular view with reenactors and gamers--but in general, the "JSOC" mentality usually ends up minimizing the ability of the line units. And also as a dangerous generalization, I think that history, both Classical and modern, shows, that governments tend to reach for elite units to balance decay... especially totalitarian and oligarchical governments. I think that there's every reason to see Argos and Thebes as states that created picked forces for political reasons...

At some point int he 5th C., the main players (Athens, Sparta, Thebes) realized that a single field army was no longer enough. Athens, for instance, was capable--as early as the Persian Wars--of sending a substantial force to Plataea and STILL fielding a fleet and a second army at Mycale. Surely this was a startling thing to other Greeks--and a dangerous development? After Sparta, Athens seems to have had the second largest force at Plataea--or, perhaps, depending on how you read numbers, a larger citizen force. Yikes!

Again, assuming that Xenophon had his Spartan system correctly, Sparta and her "allies" could field two or even three armies simultaneously as early as 480 BC, with Spartiates left at home in case of disaster.

But...as army size grew drastically over the 5th century, AND the theaters of war expanded astronomically to include virtually the whole Mediterranean 9and I don't just mean the Pelop. Wars, but also those forgotten mid-century wars that saw Athens fighting Persia in Egypt while fighting Sparta and Thebes at home) there must have been some shocking developments in hoplite service. I only see hints in the literature--hints like the Spartan "Neodemodeis" or even, perhaps, the service of Socrates.

The hiring of mercenaries--even, perhaps, the widened use of cavalry--may (I stress, this is assertion, not any form of fact) have been pushed by the shortage of hoplites.

As to spear fencing--I'm going to back off that one. Instead, I'll make a dozen counter-balanced 10 foot dories and we'll do some "mid handle" vs "long handle" fighting in August--at least 6 vs 6--and maybe make a video. It won't be anythign that will satisfy all of us--but it might help.