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dory
#1
what's the average length of a reenactors dory?

i've read of dory between 2.20m and 3 m
Yves Goris
****
Quintus Aurelius Lepidus
Legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis
Reburrus
Cohors VII Raetorum Equitata (subunit of Legio XI CPF)
vzw Legia
Flanders
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#2
Guess you can use the "hasta" - if toy have them in your group as a guide.
Kind regards
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#3
While i believe that 3m is too long for a common dory, i think that 2,5m overall is just fine. Some have argued that the dory was longer than what is usually represented in art,and they usually bas their claims in the Achilles vase,which shows a tappered,long spear. Given that the proportions of Achilles' body in that specific vase are rather destorted,and that spear heads and butts are commonly found in a distance of 2 - 2.5 m, i believe that re-enactors should lean towards the 2.5m spear. I think,if 3m spears were used,they would have been tappered,and this is too uncomfortable for most re-enactors to build.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#4
Quote: I think,if 3m spears were used,they would have been tappered,and this is too uncomfortable for most re-enactors to build.

I think reguardless of length, many were tapered. The relative diameters of point and sauroter sockets might bear this out. What do you mean by "uncomfortable" to build?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#5
Yes they might have been tappered also many of the shorter ones,but i think the 3m ones were certainly tappered.
By "uncomfortable" i mean that untappered shafts are readily availlable to re-enactors in the correct matterial,lenght and diameter,whereas to tapper a shaft is quite a lot of work.
As for determinning if the shafts were tappered only by comparing socket diameters of heads and butts,i don't think this is a very reliable method. The point is that after some time,we happen to see tappered spears represented in art. And non tappered also,at the same time.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#6
I see now, I thought you might have meant uncomfortable to weild.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#7
The simple answer you need to build a spear with the correct heft for you. I tend to the view that all spears were tapered. You are in effect buliding a large snooker cue, something responsive and fit for purpose, not just a stick. The over all length will depend on the weight of the head and the weight of the but spike. A large heavy head looks great but is hard to weld for any length of time overarm on a long shaft. You want something in the 6'-9' range, and if it is short it's reach will not be that much better than a sword, so in that case it better have a good long head with nice cutting edges. But a long 9' weapon with a light head is a thing of beauty. It can be perfectly balanced, still carry a good overall weight to aid penetration and out range most other weapons. Just make sure it still fits in your car. Smile

Giannis, tapering a shaft is easy to do well in under an hour.I sometimes use a side axe to get started, but certainly a draw knife does the job easily. Something like http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/anglo-saxon-vikin ... 3a614ee514 would do the job for you. Just follow the grain of the wood and do not work against it and it is a very enjoyable task.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
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#8
Thanks for the advice John. For an experienced "tapperer" like you it might well take under an houre, i'm sure it'd take me much more to achieve an even tapper all around. But i like that tool! My shaft is some hardwood that i don't know. It has a slight pinkish shade that could resemble cherry,but i don't believe that it is. It's grain is not very even and i found that tappering it in the butt to fit the sauroter was a real pain! I usede a piece of steel in the fashion of a draw knife. Perhaps ash is worked better.
About your belief that all spears were tappered,there are some points that evidently would oppose you. For instance, in vases we see spears with sauroters that are held overarm and they are gripped almost in the middle. And this makes sense,since real sauroters weren't all that much heavier than some spearpoints. So in an untappered shaft the grip would indeed be about in the middle. Contrary,some other vases (usually starting to appear in the late 5th century) show spears being held almost from the sauroter,or anyway very much further back than the center. Similarly,in the Achilles vase,his spear is clearly tappered,and indeed the wrapped grip of his spear as it rests to his shoulder reaches a bit over his knee. This is where my grip reaches too,but not because my shaft is tappered,only because my sauroter is much heavier than the ancient sauroters,being solid. So i don't see a reason why some spears would have been shown gripped in the middle if these simply didn't exist. In fact,however,this is the norm,and tappered spears gripped further back towards the butt are rarely depicted,and they start to appear in late 5th century. Could this mean a gradual lenghtenning of the dory? Perhaps,but we can't be sure.
Sekunda calculated roughly the lenght of the "real" dory to 3 m comparing to the body of Achilles. But how tall did he consider Achilles? Because if the potter modelled a youth of about 1.6m tall,a quite usual hight for that time,then the spear doesn't seem so long anymore!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#9
John, is it any more difficult to make a tapered shaft than a straight shaft with a scraper? I have assumed that because trees naturally taper towards the top, following the grain would give yo a taper more easily than a straight shaft. But I have never started with a tree, but a commercial dowel, so I don't know.

Giannis, one reason you would not taper your dory is if it was meant to be throwable- more of a longche. Early spears were surely like this and perhaps the middle grip seen later is a holdover from this. You can throw a tapered dory, but not too far without it tumbling. I have only read of dorys being thrown down hill, presumably short distances.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#10
But i remember seeing sauroters depicted in those middle gripped spears,and i'm telling you,i wouldn't throw a spear with a sauroter! At least not the heavy one i have. And these depictions make perfect sense! Sauroters were used to counterbalance the points,and they weren't much heavier than them! Thus,middle gripped spears and untappered shafts. I think paintings and sculptures are pretty clear. Why ignore them? It is equally nonesense to ignorring those depictions that show clearly tappered spears held way back! A very characteristic example is the 4th century sculpture of the cavalryman Panaitios that John recreated. His lance is about 3m tall and very tappered. It has a tiny spearhead and a large buttspike. I bet it could be held very near the butt,like the hoplites we see in some vases. I can't see how all early to mid 5th century artists could have missed that!
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#11
Making a tapered or untapered shaft is one and the same in terms of time and effort.

In terms of making a dory I would take a look at iconography which as ever is open to interpretation, place some trust in the limited archaeological evidence giving us a shaft diameter at the head of something around 22-25mm, and experiment.

The point of balance in part depends on the weight distribution of the shaft, but more on the weight, ,and the weight and length of the butt spike and the spearhead. And in my experience the spearhead dictates the length and type of spear that I will have to make. So for example a heavy spearhead will mean that the balance point will be further up the shaft towards the head, and the whole weapon will have to be shorter or else it is simply too heavy. A light spearhead means the balance point can move further towards the butt. And there is no reason to hold the spear at the point of balance. It is easier to do so, but I don't hold my axe at the point of balance, or my sword. As long as I can wield the weapon and cope with the weight I can hold the spear below the point of balance. As I get tired my hand will move further up the shaft towards the point of balance.

To be honest you can throw most weapons at an enemy, tapered or not. As long as I understand the balance point I can make it fly. But a dory is a large heavy weapon and will not fly far. And I would rather keep hold of it.

I sense that re-enactors spend a lot of time and money on their swords, but see a spear as a poor weapon, of little value. Yet if made to suit the person using it, the spear can be as special and unique as any sword. It is certainly not just a bit of iron on a stick.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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#12
Quote:But i remember seeing sauroters depicted in those middle gripped spears,and i'm telling you,i wouldn't throw a spear with a sauroter!

The sauroter itself is not a problem. Although much shorter, Persian Jarids have all sorts of butt spikes. The problem is balance. If the balance is too far back, the spear will tend to flip around in flight because the heavy end wants to be in front, the light end then forming a "tail" like a dart. It is similar to throwing a club, which is just a more extreme weight assymetry. Actually, if I were to throw a dory, I'd throw it sauroter first.

All that said, I merely point out that when we see a mid-balanced spear, it could be an artistic carry over of the form of a throwing spear. I know of no comparable reason for an artistic explanation for a rear-weighted spear, but we must be careful of foreshortening- there is surely some of this going on in the Achilles vase. I'm not saying that there were no mid-balanced spears, simply setting out the above caution in interpretation.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#13
A few brief points:
1. I agree with Giannis that the untapered dory came first, probably as a larger version of the 'dual purpose' hunting type spears (longche) carried by earlier Hoplites.

2. Later, we see tapered spears in the iconography, but it is not clear whether it was first developed for cavalry use ( e.g the 'kamax' as used by Panteios) and then adopted by some Hoplites ( but apparently not all, since the untapered type continues to appear in the iconography.) or vice versa......I suspect the tapered 'kamax' came first, to give the cavalryman extra reach, and it was then taken up by some Hoplites.

3. The use of a tapered shaft may have sprung from the use of 'coppiced' spear shafts which would taper slightly naturally.

4. The ultimate in 'rear wielded' spears, the sarissa, probably had a hollow head for lightness ( some examples of Macedonian spearhead had hollow spearheads, and it is logical to associate these with sarissas)
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#14
A good simple explanation, but one that places a great deal of trust on iconography. Paul, are you turning into D'Amato? :lol:

I appreciate the artist could sometimes get a great deal of detail into a piece of work, but sometimes he must have lacked the capacity or the required space etc.. The artist doing the relief of Panaitios at least had a good deal of surface to work with to show the 3m long tapered weapon. But laying the aside the intepretation of iconography.......

You seem to be suggesting the development of tapered spearshafts go hand in hand with coppicing starting in the 5th century? Really? Did no body use coppicing until then? Where not spears used in great numbers before then? Hmmmm.......

I think I would suggest that if I was to stand face to face to someone, largely covered in "copper-alloy", I would want a heavy short spear I would need to hold at the balance point. If I was engaged in a more flexible style of warfare, sometimes facing cavalry, I would want a longer more responsive weapon. A simple case of form dictating function. No more than that. Certainly an explanation not reliant on the development of coppicing or artistic interpretation. Smile
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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#15
Folks,

Happy Winter!

I'm finally getting my life back after a fall spent on budgets, performance evaluations, and 2011 planning...

I'm with John on one point: tapering a spear is easy, even starting from square stock. A nice sharp bench plane or spoke shave make short work of the task (I like the plane better as you can take a longer cut more readily). It's dead easy if you live in an ash forest, as most young ash trees were born to be spearshafts with a natural taper.

As to the question of whether they were tapered or not, I also agree with John, there is only so much you can get out of artistic interpretation, although I'm not sure I understand how coppicing could influence the taper of spear shafts.

That said, the perfectly straight dowel of today that often becomes a spearshaft is not a historical solution, and if you are making a shaft by hand with a spokeshave or plane, its actually easier to taper it than to make a perfect cylinder, all of which assumes that spears were made from baulks of timber as opposed to naturally tapered wood.

Enjoy,
Cole
Cole
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