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The Dory
#30
Quote:However, I do disagree with this:
Counterweighting does nothing to elongate spears, it can only shorten them.

This is simply a question of engineering, not a commentary on how the spear was evolving at the time. Spears did not get shorter, but they did not get longer in proportion to the increase in their reach as they would have without counterweighting. The most simple spear is a shaft of any given length, say 6', that is balanced in the middle (actually a bit ahead because of the weight of the spear-head). That leaves 3' extending both ways, fore and aft, that act as levers against the rest of the shaft. Why do we need to add a weight to shift the balance back? Because we are increasing the mass and length of the lever arm of the fore-portion if we elongate it to lets say 4'. To counter this we could just make a longer spear- 4' in front balanced by 4' behind- and 8' spear. If we don't want to make a longer spear, we can shorten the 8' spear by counterweighting to balance the 4' fore-portion. We simply add weight to the 2' rear of the original 6' spear sufficient to balance the 4' section.

Thus a 6' counter-weighted spear is really an 8' spear in its handling characteristics and weight. In fact the 6' spear has to weigh more than the 8' because the shorter rear lever arm requires more weight to counterbalance, while the 4' front section is the same. Counterweighting can only make a large spear smaller, never make a larger spear.

This is where tapering comes in. By reducing the mass of the fore-portion we require less weight to balance it. Tapering can lead to longer spears or lighter spears of the same length. To maximize the effect you want as small a spear-head as you can manage. The trade-off is that the taper conserves the strength of the shaft when stabbing directly ahead, but is much weaker when the shaft is torqued sideways. It will be much more likely to snap if it gets lodged in a shield or man and they twist. Also hitting a surface at an angle could cause the shaft to bend and snap.

This has implications for the utility of the sauroter as a weapon. Since the spear is likely to break up near the head where it is thinnest, you will end up with a long shaft remaining. The shaft will be balanced exactly wrong for you to turn it around and use the sauroter. It will be balanced like a club- a big club with a lead weight on the end perhaps. :lol: I would guess this is very difficult to raise and use as a spear.

Thus, tapering was a means of keeping spears short and light while increasing their range of action. The moment you switch to a double handed grip you don't need it, and all its limitations, if you only want to add a few feet to out-reach a dory. This is because, as you have shown, the desired balance point is now set by the distance between the soldiers hands when they grip the spear. To balance at the fore-hand now you only need a balance point some 6' from the rear if you are ok with 3' projecting behind you. That's the midpoint of a 12' spear and not so far off even for a 14-16 foot spear. Tapering could be used to lighten the spear, but it would have to taper on both ends to keep the balance correct. It is only when you want to extend the sarissa to greater length that you need to invoke all of the mechanisms that were developed for the dory.

Quote:Many of them are so wide and the shaft would have been so thick that a javelin like that would have weighted more than a hoplite spear!

The boar-spears described by Xenophon probably did weigh more than a hoplite spear- with a blade as long as a Laconian sword blade. I agree that those blades could be spear-butts though.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Messages In This Thread
The Dory - by PMBardunias - 06-05-2009, 04:52 PM
Re: The Dory - by Peter Raftos - 06-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 06-06-2009, 01:43 PM
Re: The Dory - by Peter Raftos - 07-02-2009, 04:49 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-02-2009, 05:24 PM
Re: The Dory - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-03-2009, 09:22 PM
Re: The Dory - by Peter Raftos - 07-04-2009, 01:49 AM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-04-2009, 01:52 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-04-2009, 02:14 AM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-04-2009, 04:22 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-04-2009, 04:58 AM
Re: The Dory - by Peter Raftos - 07-04-2009, 06:46 AM
Re: The Dory - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-04-2009, 11:54 AM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-04-2009, 02:28 PM
Re: The Dory - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-04-2009, 04:54 PM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-04-2009, 05:48 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-04-2009, 09:09 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-06-2009, 06:16 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-06-2009, 09:44 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-06-2009, 10:24 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-06-2009, 11:58 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-07-2009, 12:51 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-07-2009, 02:10 AM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-07-2009, 04:06 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-07-2009, 04:50 AM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-07-2009, 05:13 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-07-2009, 05:55 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-07-2009, 06:37 AM
Re: The Dory - by Giannis K. Hoplite - 07-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-07-2009, 05:03 PM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-08-2009, 02:07 AM
Re: The Dory - by Paullus Scipio - 07-08-2009, 04:51 AM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-08-2009, 05:53 AM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-08-2009, 03:46 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-08-2009, 08:00 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-08-2009, 08:48 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-17-2009, 06:16 PM
Re: The Dory - by Kineas - 07-17-2009, 10:07 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-18-2009, 04:13 AM
Re: The Dory - by richard robinson - 07-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 07-22-2009, 08:28 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paralus - 08-17-2009, 02:04 PM
Re: The Dory - by PMBardunias - 08-17-2009, 05:48 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paralus - 08-17-2009, 09:51 PM
Re: The Dory - by KRD - 08-19-2009, 01:24 PM
Re: The Dory - by Paralus - 08-19-2009, 02:10 PM

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