07-06-2009, 06:16 PM
Wow, you go away to celebrate your county's birthday and everyone posts!
A couple of issues, because I can tell we are not all talking about the same thing when we write of changing the grip. Christian is completely correct in that if you move the grip of any given spear rearward you lose control. This is not the same thing as moving the balance rearward. Moving the balance rearward, through weighting and tapering, gives you a spear that is largely equivalent to a larger spear held at the mid-point in its handling characteristics. Everything behind the grip of any spear is a counterweight. You can make use of the leverage of an extended spear-back, as in holding the spear in the middle, to counter the weight before the grip with less weight. If you want to shorten the rearward portion, you have to make the shorter rear section heavier- the spear has to weigh as much as a longer spear if all you do is use a counterweight. This is overcome to some extent by tapering the shaft, which reduces overall weight and puts the weight where you want it. When you take the rear-weighted balance to shorten back-length concept to its logical conclusion we end up with a sword- a very heavy sword.
Fighting with an unbalanced spear is like fighting with an unbalanced sword and so unwise. Your foe is fighting the front of his spear without the aid of the leverage of a proper counterweight. But even a properly back-balanced spear will be slower than a mid-balanced spear of the same length. This is because of leverage. The length of spear out front acts like a long lever arm and resists being pulled back on line. Remember, a back-weighted spear is fundamentally a longer spear. You, with an 8' spear would have an equal advantage in parrying and pointing over a 12' mid-balanced spear.
Pushing the balance back doesn't produce longer spears; it is a means of increasing the reach without making them longer. By back-weighting, you make the spear length in front of the hand equal to what it would be in a longer, mid-balanced spear. I think this describes what Iphicrates did by the way, and it is the opposite of what you describe. He simply lengthened the non-tapered spears of his Thracian or Egyptian inspired heavy peltasts to match the reach of the tapered spears of hoplites. A tapered Dory at 8' with a grip 1/3 to 1/4 from the rear reaches 5.3 to 6 feet in front. A mid-balanced 12 foot spear reaches 6feet.
As to when the balance point changes on Greek spears I don't know. Clearly they are not so weighted on the Chigi vase, for they have no sauroter and more importantly they seem to have been designed to be thrown as well as held. A rear-weighted spear will turn in flight and so is limited as a thrown weapon.
A couple of issues, because I can tell we are not all talking about the same thing when we write of changing the grip. Christian is completely correct in that if you move the grip of any given spear rearward you lose control. This is not the same thing as moving the balance rearward. Moving the balance rearward, through weighting and tapering, gives you a spear that is largely equivalent to a larger spear held at the mid-point in its handling characteristics. Everything behind the grip of any spear is a counterweight. You can make use of the leverage of an extended spear-back, as in holding the spear in the middle, to counter the weight before the grip with less weight. If you want to shorten the rearward portion, you have to make the shorter rear section heavier- the spear has to weigh as much as a longer spear if all you do is use a counterweight. This is overcome to some extent by tapering the shaft, which reduces overall weight and puts the weight where you want it. When you take the rear-weighted balance to shorten back-length concept to its logical conclusion we end up with a sword- a very heavy sword.
Quote:If I hold my spear in the standard center grip (and perhaps just a half-hand width forward to that) and you hold yours further back...you have no point control--that it, the ability to put your spearhead EXACTLY where you want it. I can put it into the T of a Corinthian's face opening 5 out of 10 times.More important, though--if I catch your spear point on my haft--or on my shield--I can flick it away and you can't ever get it back on line before I push into you. This is the killer that convinced all of us in Toronto that this could only have been a thing rear rankers did. In the front ranks, gripping far back is tantamount to not having a weapon.
Fighting with an unbalanced spear is like fighting with an unbalanced sword and so unwise. Your foe is fighting the front of his spear without the aid of the leverage of a proper counterweight. But even a properly back-balanced spear will be slower than a mid-balanced spear of the same length. This is because of leverage. The length of spear out front acts like a long lever arm and resists being pulled back on line. Remember, a back-weighted spear is fundamentally a longer spear. You, with an 8' spear would have an equal advantage in parrying and pointing over a 12' mid-balanced spear.
Quote:The changed balance point allowed the production of slightly longer spears - e.g. Iphicrates type, and ultimately led to the design of the macedonian pike - which of necessity had to be tapered in shaft.
Pushing the balance back doesn't produce longer spears; it is a means of increasing the reach without making them longer. By back-weighting, you make the spear length in front of the hand equal to what it would be in a longer, mid-balanced spear. I think this describes what Iphicrates did by the way, and it is the opposite of what you describe. He simply lengthened the non-tapered spears of his Thracian or Egyptian inspired heavy peltasts to match the reach of the tapered spears of hoplites. A tapered Dory at 8' with a grip 1/3 to 1/4 from the rear reaches 5.3 to 6 feet in front. A mid-balanced 12 foot spear reaches 6feet.
As to when the balance point changes on Greek spears I don't know. Clearly they are not so weighted on the Chigi vase, for they have no sauroter and more importantly they seem to have been designed to be thrown as well as held. A rear-weighted spear will turn in flight and so is limited as a thrown weapon.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
