Evolution of the Attic Helmet???

[Celtic505]

While sifting through the Roman Helmet Database I noticed two Helmets I've never seen before but reminded me of another one from the 3rd Century AD. They are the the two Cavalry Sports I Helmets (the only two that have pictues). These look almost exactly like the Theilenhofen Helmet minus the Eagle crest. I mean to me it was amazing to see these two (well three counting the Theilenhofen, but before this I thought that helm to be unique) with distinct brow plates, just like an Attic Helm would have, except that these have three round bits that stick out in intervals on the top of the brow plate. But to me its seems like perhaps maybe these are what the Attic Helmet of the 1st centuries BC/AD and 2nd Century AD evolved into. All 3 of these helmets are dated to the 3rd Century AD. So perhaps these are attic helmets, 3rd Century style? I don't know that for sure but they just seem so similar to the representations of Attic Helms, like the Louvre releif and the Cavalry troops presenting heads on the Trajanic frieze. What do you guys think?


heres links if your too lazy to click back to the database and look yourself:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

[Theodosius the Great]

Wow. I should spend more time with the helmet database.

Yes, they do look related to the Theilenhofen cavalry helmet, IMO.
As to whether the Theilenhofen itself is related to the Attic helmet I think it's the best candidate to speculate on.

Another candidate that's been mentioned before on other threads is, of course, the Italic 'A'.
Here's one thread : <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21504&hilit=neck+riveted">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21504&hilit=neck+riveted<!-- l

IIRC, Tarbicus was the first to point out the possible connection with the brow plate. That was very perceptive.

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It looks like the continuance of features that were popular in one period, being adapted as time went on.
Much like retro styled cars keep popping up from time to time.

[jho]

The Theilenhofen helmet belongs to a quite substantial group of helmets referred to as the "Guisborough" type of helmet in continental Europe. Specimens include helmets from:

Guisborough
Chalon
Cetate-Razboieni
Gerulata (this is probably the most spectacular of the group!)

(all sans crest)

Theilenhofen
Worthing
Vetren-Silistra

(the last two may be treated as a separate group because they appear to have one-piece face masks rather than cheek pieces)

The "Guisborough" helmets appear to be the end result of a long tradition of Pseudo-Attic cavalry helmets beginning with the helmet from Weiler and running through the well-known Pseudo-Attic cavalry helmets attested both by finds and by tomb stones from the first / early second century AD. The Butzbach helmet appears to be an intermediate stage between the Weiler helmets and the later Guisborough helmets because it shows many features of both.

There has been much speculation about the origin of this group of helmets (a Thracian cultural back ground is often cited as well as a connection to Germanicus because there is a famous marble head of Germanicus wearing such a helmet sans cheek pieces).

What is really fascinating is that, in particular with the publication of the Guttmann collection, is has become clear that a lot of helmets existed which share characteristics of different cavalry and infantry types and are all loosely similar to the Attic type of helmet (in particular the so-called Weisenau-Guttmann helmets). Further, it has become clearer that the Celtic helmet making tradition was often also closely following the Attic type in helmets such as those from Kessel, Thür, Frankfurt, Idria, Poland etc.. For more information see Peroni's post in this thread:

link from old RAT

You can also see a few specimens of Pseudo-Attic helmets in this summary I made (Weisenau helmets, top right):

[url:x6q95ypa]http://picasaweb.google.com/jho655/RomanHelmets?feat=directlink[/url]

[Celtic505]

Wow, thanks for that reply. A lot of helpful information there. I wonder though about the Attic Helmets true origins. I've read many accounts that it evolved ultimately from the corinthian, which the greeks trend towards helmets with more openess and ability to see and hear developed the chalcidian helm and than losing the nose gaurd evolved the attic helm. But I've seen depictions of the Attic Helm much before the one that developed from chalcidian types in the 3rd century BC. This helmet has a distinctive brow plate and is seen on many classical statues of the gods. There is a particular example from a vase around 455-450 BC by the Niobid Painter, and is currently in the Louvre. It apparently shows Heracles and the argonauts. I can try and scan a picture of it later on, now im pressed for time. But if you have the Osprey Warrior series "The Ancient Greeks" it can be found on page 8. One of the men in the plate depicted on the front cover on the far right is wearing it. It appears to have scales on the bowl of the helm and his cheek pieces are flipped upwards. But it has the distinct brow gaurd, crest and neck gaurd of an attic helmet, clearly not decended from chalcidian types. There are far more examples of it in greek painting and sculpture as well. I am running out of time and shall write more later and try to post some pics.

[Theodosius the Great]

These Roman-made cavalry helmets tend to look more bucket-shaped than what we see from the Hellenistic era. Greek helmets often featured neck guards with a deep curvature which most Roman helmets seem to lack. Maybe the Italo-Celtic helmets reflect a cruder level of craftsmanship compared to the Hellenistic eastern armorers' skill level ?

~Theo